On Saturday night, from my seat ringside at the O2 Arena, I saw Francis Warren happily bopping his head to Moses Itauma’s entrance music as his client made his way to join him in the ring.
Warren, like the thousands of fans in London, was expectant.
In 48 minutes or less, he would – he/we presumed – would be the manager of the IBF heavyweight champion of the world.
Alas, that honour is now bestowed on his opposite number, Keith Connolly, manager of Filip Hrgovic, the big Croat who was able to withstand Itauma’s excitable power and outlast him, when the 21-year-old went out on his shield, and on his feet, in the ninth round.
On Tuesday, I talked to Francis about the night, the fight, and the future. Battling a chest infection and having a few pieces to pick up, while also drawing positives from the night, he firmly believes he is still the manager of a future heavyweight world champion.
“Some guys just don’t move,” he said of Hrgovic.
Tris Dixon: I saw you buzzing when Moses was walking to the ring and loving it, then obviously next time I saw you was in the corridors afterwards. What a gamut of emotions.
Francis Warren: It’s just, you know… obviously I feel for him. The boxing’s one thing, but I just want to make sure he’s all right. I mean... And he seems in pretty good spirits, to be honest. I spoke to him a couple of times, he seems okay.
Well, I saw Itauma’s video that went out on Sunday and it was a very good video, I thought. He clearly wants to get back to it. Because, in today’s era of social media, I’ve seen some ask, ‘should Moses Itauma retire?’ Which is just...
Oh, are you joking?
No, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen the graphics and the thumbnails. Have you had much time with him? Or any time to digest anything with him?
I spoke to him Sunday morning and he seemed obviously very disappointed. And he just said, ‘Oh, I’m just gutted, I should be champion…’
I said, ‘Yeah, but you’re not, so just pull yourself together and get on with it.’ I think it’s sometimes best to be matter-of-fact, especially when it’s that raw. There’s no point doing a deep dive while you’re not even 12 hours after he’s got beat.
And I spoke to him yesterday and I said, ‘You just need to learn how to park the bus.’
(Author’s note: Soccer terminology for going defensive to run out the clock)
‘If you’re up in a fight and you’re not getting rid of someone, unfortunately, mate, you’re in a 12-round business. And sometimes you need to recognise that some guys will not shift. There are immovable objects in this world.’
I remember when Daniel [Dubois] boxed Kevin Johnson and everyone was like, ‘Oh, Daniel can’t punch.’ I mean, it’s fucking nuts.
But some guys just don’t move. Some guys are built for durability. And when you’ve got a trainer like Abel Sanchez and an experienced trainer, if you’re not going to stop him early, you need to have that capability to switch plans.
I don’t think anyone could have talked him [Itauma] out of trying to stop him. I don’t care who was in his corner, who was shouting advice at him, he had tunnel vision and I think he was ‘gone.’
David Haye said he would never have listened to Adam Booth who might have told him to ‘just box’ to start with against Carl Thompson… Moses didn’t have to blast anyone out, did he?
No, I mean, he was up. You’ve seen all the scorecards come out. I think the worst way around, he was 80-71 (80-71 twice and 79-72).
I mean, David Haye’s quite right when he said, ‘Do you really think Ben’s telling him to go out and knock his head off?’ Ben would have been, and you can clearly hear it now, in between the rounds, now that all the footage has been put out and has been clipped up, Ben was saying to him, ‘Just steady yourself and control the pace.’ But Hrgovic was smart, though. It’s almost like it was a bit of a rope-a-dope situation, I think, because he made it look like he was hurt, so then Moses would have fucking gone steaming into him and then he was going, ‘Oh, I’m all right, actually.’ So he’s smart, but that’s experience. And that’s what, unfortunately, Moses was lacking on the night and that’s what showed through.
That was it. That’s the only difference. It’s not skill set. It’s not determination. It’s not heart. All Moses was lacking was experience and round management.
And unfortunately, he’s had to learn on the job.
And obviously the thing is, you were getting the answers that you wanted until right at the end, weren’t you? He was showing heart. He was showing courage. He was getting the rounds that he needed under his belt and having stuff coming back his way. So it was going well until it wasn’t.
Did you see any signs before the ninth that it was like the tide was going to turn?
I thought he looked a bit puffed out at the start of round four. I do think he looked a little bit puffed out and I thought to myself, ‘Shit, you need to switch up the game plan here a little bit because this might go the wrong way here if you keep on as you are.’
But there was so much more left in the fight that I think it gave Moses the encouragement to carry on… Filip was basically giving him the come on, I think.
You know, Abel’s one of the top trainers in the world. And, at the end of the day… because I think in the seventh round, Moses started going, body-head, body-head, and I think that I was just like, ‘Right, just carry on that, carry on that.’ But then, when he got body-head, body-head, it almost gave Moses more encouragement to go and try and stop him again.
And then, unwittingly, he ran the tank ran dry.
Yeah. I mean, it was like taking a plug out, wasn’t it?
I know it’s not helpful, Francis, but everyone wants a scapegoat. Everyone wants a finger pointed at someone. Is there anyone to point a finger at?
No. I think, as a collective unit… we did everything we thought was right, from management to promoter to training to media team, everything.… maybe we could have controlled a few things a bit better in terms of making sure that his adrenaline levels were kept a bit lower pre-fight. Because I think he looked exhausted before he even got in there. A little bit. You know what I mean? You know when you say a boxer has over-trained? It’s not over-training, it’s that adrenaline spike at the wrong time, isn’t it?
It’s hard to control that without that experience as well. That’s the sort of thing that he can put in his back pocket now moving forward, but didn’t have beforehand.
Yeah, for sure. But it’s all down to experience. And if he doesn’t learn from it, then the whole thing was a waste of time. If he learns from it, it will be in the making of him… there’s a coming-of-age fight. Although he didn’t get the win, you could argue that might have been his coming-of-age fight.
Another thing David said to me was, ‘Your career starts from when you know who you are.’ Because until you go through that, you might have your own questions. Obviously, everyone was asking Moses, ‘What happens if..’ and he must have been wondering that himself because he didn’t know.
Well, one thing’s for sure, he’s got a chin. One thing’s for sure is that he’s got a massive, massive set of balls on him. Because even though he was wavering at the end of the eighth round, I think not a lot of guys probably would have got up off their stool for the ninth round. And you could see Filip, he was like a bull, wasn’t he? He couldn’t wait to get back at him at the beginning of the ninth round. But even that minute rest at the end of the eighth round, it wasn’t enough. His gas tank was completely empty, but he still got up. He still tried his hardest. And even just before the fight was stopped, he still threw a big shot and caught Filip.
And Filip was ‘gone’ as well. He was exhausted. It just came down to round management and a bit of ring nous, which Moses will definitely have now.
And not many people have had that experience at 21. So he’s in good stead for the future, for sure. It’s just very disappointing for him.
I’m not being blasé about it. It is a disappointment. It’s a step back.
But what do they say? The comeback is better than the setback?
What happens next? I don’t think Moses is going to be afforded a step down as such because he’s such big news now. And everyone’s going to be interested to see what happens.
If you look at his last three fights, Dillian [Whyte], Jermaine [Franklin]… So Dillian headlined in Saudi. Jermaine headlined in Manchester and he headlined at the O2. And there was not a ticket left. Boxing is not under the radar. It’s the forefront of most people who are into sport. It’s football then boxing at the moment, isn’t it? So when you’ve got the notoriety that Moses has already got at such a young age, and it’s not like he just went out there and got chinned in a round because it then would probably be a bit more of a difficult comeback story. He went out there, showed the heart of a lion, and there was definitely... I mean, you saw not one person left until everyone knew he was all right.
The crowd was still there singing his name whilst he was being helped out of the arena. He’s got fans. He’s got support.
And everyone knows who he is, so I think, you know, does he have to headline again straight away? No. But could he? Yes.
I suppose partly because of the storyline, right? Because everyone would be wanting to see what he does. But in terms of your job, it’s now really hard, isn’t it, from a matchmaking perspective? Because you don’t really want another blowout either. But at the same time, you don’t want the same risk attached to the next one.
I’m not going to start chucking names about. But in the same way, Moses, he’s already said to me he wants to get straight back on the horse and back up at the top level. So it’ll be a discussion between all of us as to what we think the right move is, what we think the right fight is. But if you ask Moses, I mean, he’d fight Filip again for his next fight.
He definitely would. However, there is work to do, there’s prep to do, there’s things to work on. And as I’ve said, he’s 21 years old and he’s got plenty of time to make sure that next time he’s in this situation history doesn’t repeat itself. You’re a fool if you don’t learn from your mistakes. And let’s get it right, it definitely wasn’t a perfect performance because he’s not a world champion, he went too big too quick. But he’ll know not to do that again.
Yeah, and obviously your dad is well experienced in this. When Breidis Prescott blew away Amir Khan, two fights later Khan was world champion.
Yeah, I mean, a bit of masterful matchmaking if I do say so myself, me and Dean Powell put the Kotelnik fight together
And I think he had the Fagan and the Barrera fights and then he fought for the title…
And then he won the super lightweight title and he boxed absolutely flawlessly. But you learn from it. And I think that’s the biggest message I think that Moses will take on board here is that you’ve got to learn from it because if it happens twice, then there’s serious question marks.
If it happens once, it’s just a bit of inexperience. So he’s 21 years old. He’s still got the world at his feet.
He’s just gone nine very, very, very good rounds and won nine rounds – or won eight rounds – against one of the best heavyweights of the last 10 years.
He’s now up to 40 rounds [as a pro]. The last round on Saturday night was his 40th round of boxing. So put that into perspective.
And tell me that he hasn’t got room to learn and to make sure that the experience he had on Saturday night… He’s got a lot of room to lean on that and make sure he goes on from it.
It would be very easy to say like, and I’m sure there’s a lot, well, I know there’s a lot of after-timers out there, but when you look back on it, it’s still hard to say that it was the wrong fight, isn’t it? It was just the wrong, he just fought it the wrong way.
Definitely not the wrong match to make. I think you’ve just taken the words out of my mouth, Tris. It’s just he didn’t hold up when he needed to hold up. He didn’t recognise the signs that Filip wasn’t going to go anywhere. I mean, if you ask Filip, who’s the better boxer out of you and Moses, he’s definitely going to say, technically-wise for sure, I think he’d give Moses the nod ahead of him. But Filip’s got the more experience.
It’s such a tough one to analyse, Tris, isn’t it? Because he’s won every round, so it’s hard to say that he’s getting it wrong, but it’s just… you can’t keep up that pace for that amount of minutes. You just can’t do it.
And nobody on this planet could have done that apart from Ricky Hatton against Kostya Tszyu, of course, that’s the only one I would say is different.
With regards to the future, and obviously everyone’s coming under the spotlight, but do you imagine Moses fights Hrgovic down the line? Because that’s a huge rematch, but Hrgovic is talking of boxing in Croatia, unifications, he has Frank Sanchez to consider… but I’m saying like a year or 18 months down the line, do you envisage it possibly being a thing?
I’m sure he would want to do it again, run it back… Everything’s out there, isn’t it? And available. But first and foremost, he’s just got to get back on the horse and make sure his next fight is the right fight for him to continue his development. And that’s the thing, he’s still developing, isn’t he? He’s not even found his man strength yet, I don’t think. He’s 21. What is he going to be like at 24, 25? He is going to be a monster.
All right, Francis.
I just want to say massive congratulations to Filip.
It was a great fight and a fair play for stepping up in the first place, because you’ve got to remember, this wasn’t for a world title. This was just a fight originally. So it wasn’t like there was any accolades at the end for anybody apart from getting a win.
So the world title’s a massive bonus, but for both guys stepping up to the plate and having this fight, that’s what it’s about. It’s the fight game. And unfortunately, there has to be a loser.
Unfortunately, it was Moses on Saturday… It will be a fantastic journey and I don’t think it’ll be too long before he’s back in that, I don’t want to mention the words world title, but up there amongst the best and fighting against the best. He won’t want to be taking backward steps and going back to guys that he’s guaranteed he’s going to beat. I think he needs a bit of jeopardy in his mindset.
And there are guys out there that will give him that spike on his back that he needs probably to get him going again. So it’s going to be exciting and I’m very much looking forward to the next chapter.
Just one last one, Francis, then I’ll leave you to it. I do appreciate you making the time. But do you anticipate him being out this year?
If not by the end of this year, it’ll be early next year.
That would be my advice to him. Obviously we’re not making any grand plans at the moment. It’s a bit too fresh and a bit too raw.
I don’t think he should be sitting out for two or three months just reflecting, because it will drive him round the twist. I think these guys, after a setback like that, they need to get back on the saddle when it’s time for them. But he shouldn’t be waiting too long. I think December, January would be an ideal time frame for him.
Yeah, great. Okay, Francis, look, really appreciate it.
Thank you.
(All photos courtesy of Queensberry Promotions)
Does Francis Warren manage any fighters not promoted by his Dad? Is he this generation's Carl King?