For 40 years, Thomas Hauser has been one of boxing’s great writers.

A winner of dozens of awards, author of many books and, not least, Muhammad Ali’s official biographer, Hauser has chronicled the fights, the fighters and the business of boxing with real vigour and without fear.

His recent pieces on the heinous BoxRaw/Riyadh Season sparring club shows, the Ali Revival Act and the ill-fated Times Square event in 2025 have highlighted the gap between Hauser and the rest of those covering the sport.

His contributions to boxing are likely unmatched, and that is not hyperbole. Of course, he is in the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

There is a great quote about Thomas and – to paraphrase – the gist of it is, “Oh God, Thomas Hauser is writing about me,” said in a way that conveys honour and privilege. The other quote is, “Oh God, Thomas Hauser is writing about me,” said in a way that speaks of alarm and fear.

“Boxing is a great writer’s sport,” Hauser told me on a recent visit to London. “And you know that because you’ve made it the centerpiece of your professional life. But my interests go beyond boxing. The first book I wrote was Missing, which was then made into the feature film with Jack Lemon. I’ve written non-fiction about race relations. I wrote a philosophy on moral values book about Chernobyl. The Charles Dickens and Mark Twain books led me into that world. I wrote a book called The Beethoven Conspiracy, which is a thriller about the search for a lost Beethoven conspiracy.

“And really the reason I did that was I realised all the music I was listening to was from the 1960s and earlier, which was my time for growing up. And I missed the infusion of new music into my life. And I said, ‘Well, Beethoven’s been around for hundreds of years and if I understood him and his music, maybe I’d appreciate it. And what better way to learn about something than to write about it?’”

But boxing, with both its endearing qualities and malevolent politics, continues to entice Hauser.

(Hauser, far right, and the author, left, collect their plaques at this year’s BWAA awards ceremony in New York)

“Boxing is ever-changing,” he says. “There’s this ever-changing cast of characters.

“And it’s something I keep coming back to, partly socially, because a big part of my social life revolves around people I’ve met in boxing. It’s something I’m good at. And you like to keep your finger in something like that. I like boxing people, and I like being one of them. It’s an honour to be part of boxing. And again, as I’ve said many times, some of the best people I’ve met in my life were in boxing, many of the worst people I’ve met in my life were in boxing. But I enjoy the exchange. And I feel privileged to have spent as much time as I have in boxing.

“The most obvious example of that being the years I spent with Muhammad Ali. I will never have a professional project that brings me as much joy as the time I spent with Muhammad, working with him, writing about him, because that was a very special experience with a special man.”

Hauser is an attorney by trade, but he started writing in 1977.

In 1983, he peeked behind the curtain of the boxing business when he wrote The Black Lights, documenting the story of Billy Costello while exploring what life was like in boxing’s gyms, boardrooms and, of course, prize rings. Hauser saw it all, from the underbelly to the bright lights.

The sport was a different world then, and while boxing remains easy to infiltrate, back then the doors were open wider still.

By Hauser’s own admission, he couldn’t walk into a Yankees training session. He couldn’t get into the Knicks locker room. But he could go to Gleason’s and speak to world champions.

While you can still go to Brooklyn and get into Gleason’s without an eyebrow being raised, much has changed, not least how the sport is covered.

Back then, the major newspapers in the UK and the US had dedicated boxing scribes – and they were some of the finest sportswriters in the world.

The big fighters were big news in pop culture, not merely retained in social media silos, and boxing was a TV staple.

While boxing boasts incredibly impressive online analytics today, it is not the same, and Hauser has witnessed that and agrees with the statement.

“I do,” he continues. “You write complete articles, not just books. I read you regularly, and you write full, complete, in-depth articles. But there’s so much clickbait out there. I’ll have people tell me, ‘Oh, I wrote 600 articles last year.’

“No, you couldn’t write 600 articles. You might have posted on social media 600 times or put up two-paragraph regurgitations of press releases. But it’s not real, in-depth, thoughtful writing.

“And we need more people telling the stories the way they are, not posturing, not from the point of view of shilling, but talking about it honestly. Years and years ago, a fan sent me an email, and he said, ‘I’m in marketing and one of the things I’ve learned in marketing is I can sell perfume that smells bad. I can sell a shirt that’s ugly. I cannot sell bad sports because sports fans know whether or not they’re being entertained.’ And too often, boxing fans are not entertained.

“If there’s a fight, they turn on the TV, and they see one-sided A-side versus B-side undercard fights. They see a boring main event where they know in advance who’s going to win. Very often, it comes on at a ridiculous time. In the United States, when you have a major pay-per-view event, the main event goes on sometimes around midnight. Can you imagine the National Football League or NBA putting on a flagship event that starts at midnight? It’s quite possible that if you people in the UK want to see Fury-Joshua, if it happens, you’ll have to wait till four o’clock in the morning to watch it. I mean, this is not how you build a fan following.

“In the United States, I don’t even know half the time when the fight I want to watch starts because they’ll tell you that the telecast starts at 8pm Eastern time, but they don’t tell you when the main event fighters are going to walk to the ring. And if they do tell you, sometimes they’re off by 45 minutes. No sport holds its middle finger up to its fans as often as boxing does.

“It does not treat the fans well. If you go to a fight in the United States, you might watch a fight, it lasts a round, then you have 45 minutes of downtime and then there’s another fight, and then there’s more downtime. And boxing is a great sport. I feel, and I’ve said it, that boxing at its best is the greatest sport in the world. But I’d like to see the people who run the sport be a little more solicitous of the fans in a genuine way. You know, don’t say, ‘We’re doing this for the fans,’ and then screw the fans.

“Really give the fans what they want. Now, the National Football League in the United States does that in a very real way when they televise football. The [soccer] World Cup did that. The on-site fan experience was pretty exploitative. There were a lot of problems that I had with the World Cup. But for the most part, when people around the world wanted to watch the World Cup on whatever platform they were watching it on, they knew when the game was going to start. They had a satisfying experience watching it. They knew how to market it and present it. I’d like to see boxing do that more.”

Hauser lives in New York, but his interest in boxing’s machinations is not restricted to the USA. He follows big-time boxing and has a contacts book that would be the envy of many in the sport. And when he calls, people pick up.

But he is quick to identify the difference in the health of the sport when it comes to separating the United States from the United Kingdom.

“Certainly, you have people in the UK, Frank Warren, Eddie Hearn, they know how to promote it at the grassroots level. They know how to engage their constituencies,” Hauser states.

“But as things move up the ladder, the fans tend to be marginalised more and more and more, because that’s where the money is. And it’s a shame. I understand.

“I’m a traditionalist. But there are some things about tradition that are good, that stand the test of time, and we should go back to them. There’s a reason that the fans in the United States at least have turned away from boxing.”

In the US, he refers to boxing as “a niche sport.”

“There was a time when the heavyweight champion of the world was the most coveted title in sports,” he recalls.

“My mother could have told you who the heavyweight champion was, and it didn’t have to be Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali, she could have told you that it was Ingemar Johansson, that’s how famous the heavyweight champion was. And now, if you go out on the street and ask 50 people who’s the heavyweight champion of the world, I don’t think a whole lot of people are going to say, ‘Well, [Agit] Kabayel has the WBC title, and Murat Gassiev is the WBA champion, and Filip Hrgovic has this belt.’

“Sport has been destroyed by the lack of [credible] champions, by the high paywalls. Back when I started, the highest paywall in the United States certainly was HBO. In fact, it wasn’t even HBO.

“When I was writing The Black Lights, it was ABC, CBS, and NBC, the three broadcast networks that really were the centre of boxing. And then eventually HBO came in, but that was a fairly low-price paywall. The best fought the best, as you saw from Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler.

“You became a star by winning big fights. You didn’t have to wait to become a star and then fight the big fight. So the sport has really been shooting itself in the foot.

“It’s easy to look and say, ‘Well, that’s just a grumpy old man.’ And, you know, old people think the music was better when they were young, or the food was better when they were young, and everything else.

“But boxing, certainly in the United States, was better when you had recognisable heavyweight champions, not just heavyweight champions, but champions in all weight divisions. And the best fought the best, and people had access to the sport.

“And when Turki Al-Sheikh came into the sport, people were saying he will save boxing.

“But it now looks as though Riyadh Season is getting close to exiting boxing. Might not, but right now the only two fights on the drawing board, I believe, are Fury-Joshua, which may or may not happen, and Canelo-Mbilli. And we have to ask ourselves, ‘Is boxing better off now than it was when Turki Al-Sheikh came in?’ And yes, he gave us some very good fights, specifically, the heavyweight fights involving Joshua and Fury and Oleksandr Usyk. But right now, are we as a sport better off than we were when he came into it? I don’t think so. And Zuffa Boxing, certainly in the United States, doesn’t show any signs of making it better, just making it worse.

“So there’s a lot of work to still be done, but boxing is such a great sport that I hope it gets done.”

Hauser was in London on business this month. He spoke at the Houses of Parliament about his life in boxing, on a night during which it again became clear how important the sport is in communities. It was there where London mayor Sadiq Khan discussed his belief that Anthony Joshua-Tyson Fury had to take place in the UK.

But Hauser was also promoting a new book, and it’s not a boxing one.

Hauser scratched another literary itch of historical fiction by writing a Sherlock Holmes novel – Sherlock Holmes and Mrs. Rutledge.

“I’ve written historical fiction about Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, Beethoven,” he explains.

“I had written three previous detective stories. I enjoyed both genres enormously and I decided to blend the two together and write about Sherlock Holmes. And the genesis for it all was, I had this line in my head, ‘She is a beautiful woman, Watson.’

“And everything flowed from there, the plot, the characters. Now, I changed the opening line a bit from ‘she is a beautiful woman’ to ‘she is an unusual woman’ but I had a wonderful time writing this book. It’s great fun to have Holmes and [his sidekick] Watson and Mrs. Rutledge rattling around in your head.”

Obviously there have been many iterations of Holmes and his ensemble of characters, and Hauser has focused on traditional Holmes, with the first half of the book set in 1891 and the second in 1906.

It’s not Holmes vs. the Nazis. Holmes is not depicted as a James Bond-type action hero. He’s a sleuth who uses his cunning and guile to level any playing field.

And Hauser has created a powerful and formidable female lead in Mrs. Rutledge.

Often, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the original Holmes author, has female characters in more submissive roles, whether they’re cooks, maids or victims.

But Hauser is used to making women the stars. Two years ago, he wrote a book called My Mother and Me. His mother, Eleanor, died, aged 96, four years ago.

“My mother lived a long, very rewarding life,” Hauser says.

“And My Mother and Me reached out to a totally different audience. It was not just about relationships between parents and children, but what it’s like to get old and then very old, and finally reach a point where you really feel you’ve lived long enough and you’re ready to die.

“And one of the most rewarding things for me is when I get emails from a reader who will say, ‘I just read My Mother and Me and it resonated with me because of my mother or my father or my son.’ And there are a couple of new Muhammad Ali anecdotes in My Mother and Me, so I keep coming back to that. But I just love writing in all genres.”

His new book tells the story of Holmes and Mrs. Rutledge.

“And I enjoyed creating that character, having Mrs. Rutledge and Holmes interact with each other,” he adds. “And then, as the story evolves, see how they change each other. One of the things that makes good fiction work is that the characters change over time. And they do that together here in a sense. And I’ve got a murderer, I’ve got villains, I’ve got good characters, there’s betrayal, sexual obsession. I touch on a lot of themes. But at the end of the day, I hope that people simply read this and say, ‘Hey, I enjoyed this. This was a fun read. This was a good book.’

“One of the most satisfying things about writing for a living is the realisation that on occasion people actually read what I write. You’re a writer, you’re a creative artist, you have that feeling.

“So if people read Sherlock Holmes and Mrs. Rutledge and they enjoy it, then I’ve done my thing on that.”

Hauser implores those who read the new book to reach out to him with their thoughts by contacting him directly at thomashauserwriter@gmail.com.

“I promise that I will respond,” he says. “I like hearing from readers. And if they have something negative to say, I’m open to listening to that too. If all somebody writes me is, ‘Oh, I loved it,’ that’s nice to hear, but I don’t learn anything new. So, if somebody has something thoughtful to say on the other side of the coin, I’d love to hear that too.”

**

But Hauser is far from done with boxing. He has a couple more books in the pipeline, including a quotations book he’s worked on for years that stretches over 100,000 words and that dates back from the Iliad all the way up to the present day and would serve as the complete collection of boxing quotes. And there’s more to come on Ali.

“I also came upon, several months ago, a treasure trove of unpublished photographs from Ali-Frazier III in Manila,” Hauser reveals. “And those will be published in book form sometime next year by Pear Publishing along with the text that I will write based, in large part, on 75 hours’ worth of old tapes with Joe Frazier that have never seen the light of day before. I love writing about boxing and I’m hoping that both of these books, The Treasury of Boxing Quotations and the coffee table Ali-Frazier III book, will add to what’s out there to help people understand and appreciate boxing in general and Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier in particular.”

Hauser’s literary contributions are already beyond significant in boxing. The more he can offer the sport, the better, even if we have to share him with Beethoven, Sherlock Holmes and Mark Twain and, of course, Mrs. Rutledge.

When you look at Conor Benn, as a contorted, aggressive, bombing force, it is clear that particular apple did not fall far from the tree.

Father Nigel was a brilliant warrior, courageous, all heart, known for being at his most dangerous when either hurt or with his back to the ropes.

As a significant underdog this weekend against Ryan Garcia in Las Vegas, Conor’s back is to the wall.

He is not expected to win. Many don’t think he will hear the final bell.

But he has inspiration in his corner in the shape of his father, who has no doubt his boy produces an upset.

Then, he will emerge fully from his Hall of Fame father’s vast shadow. No longer would he be Nigel Benn’s son, but Nigel would become Conor’s father.

Nigel, 62, chuckles at that.

“That’s what people have been saying, ‘You’re Conor Benn’s dad, isn’t you?’ Now I go, ‘Conor Benn’s my son.’ Just bring him down a bit, you know what I mean? Bring him down a bit. But yeah, he’s doing really well, I’m so happy for him, really happy for him.”

The Benns have been in camp in Los Angeles for several weeks before wrapping up preparations in Las Vegas ahead of the fight.

The Benn name is up in lights up and down The Strip, and Nigel could not be prouder. It was the revenge win over Chris Eubank that elevated Benn to the levels he now operates at.

“It’s after the second Eubank fight, he put himself back on the map,” his dad told me. “He won that fight convincingly, then he fought Regis Prograis and done really well. So I’m just happy to see where he’s gone. And you know what, he’s gone out there and he’s done it. He’s worked hard, he’s grafted for the last 10 years to put himself in this position. So I can’t fault him, you know?”

When his son turned over, despite debuting at the O2 Arena, there were not high hopes for where Conor could get to, and Nigel admits that.

“I never thought it’d be like where he is today,” he said. “And it just surpassed what I thought he was going to get. I do think he surpassed himself.”

Benn was a Hall of Famer who notched several huge wins and was a two-weight champion, at middleweight and super middleweight. Is he more satisfied that Conor has made a fortune, or that his son is now challenging for titles?

“Well, I think at the end of the day, one thing is I’m glad that he’s has got financial security, because at the end of the day you can have a guy that fights for titles, he doesn’t go nowhere,” Nigel said. “He then leaves boxing, he’s got to go back to work. So with me, I look at it, it’s like I wanted to win titles, because I know me personally, me winning titles, money’s going to follow automatically because I can put bums on the seats. Some fighters are good but just can’t sell a ticket. And Conor can do both. And he’s proved that he can do it. He can go there, he can go and do 12 hard rounds and he can get the crowd excited. So he’s got everything that he needs. And he’s doing well now. He’s doing really well.”

Back when Nigel was fighting, the internet was an optic-fibre pipedream, social media wasn’t an idea and there were only four TV channels in the UK on British televisions. Newspapers were big business, and if you were in them, frankly, you were famous. Nigel was very famous, but now Conor has a social following that stretches into millions.

How would he compare their different experiences of fame?

“Well, I think because even now it’s so funny, we had the young and the old [people tuning in to watch], when we were fighting Eubank and all that, we had the crowd, we had the British population watching these two guys fight. But now you’ve got social media, which is completely different.

“It’s another level. But would I prefer to be in this time or my time? I would always choose my time over everything because I really enjoyed my time. Because here now, it’s just something different. It’s something I don’t really understand.”

How does he feel his son is coping with the fame, and how did Nigel handle it?

“I don’t know, I didn’t really cope with it well really. I just… you just get caught up in that razzamatazz.

“And I don’t think Conor’s actually done that. I think at the beginning, he was a bit off the rails, but now he’s got his feet firmly on the ground, got a third children, and yeah, he’s just living, he’s absolutely living the dream. We talk about him now and we look at his lovely big mansion that he has and we look at it and think, ‘Mate, look at you, son. Look what you’ve achieved.’ And you’ve got to pinch yourself to know that he’s not just totally secured his kids’ lives, but his great-grandkids’ lives. That’s how much he’s making. Which is good because at the end of the day, that’s all you want your son to do, be successful in everything that he does. And now he has a shot at the WBC. How good is that?”

That is all well and good, but Conor has come this far in 26 fights and he’s now 29. But there is only one thing that Nigel really wants to see his boy get out of boxing.

“Be a world champion,” he said.

“That’s it. Win the green belt like I did. And then at the end of the day, he decides if he’s going to carry on or if he’s going to leave and start a new life… But it’s very hard if you’re a world champion, which I believe he will be. I’ve never seen anybody train like my son, ever. Ever, ever. I ain’t seen nobody train like my son. He’s another level. Since day dot. It’s even more intense now. He’s got his strength and conditioning coach Dan [Lawrence], Pedro [Neymar], Tony [Sims]. He’s got everything. He’s got his chef that cooks him special foods and everything. So he’s got everybody working around him.”

And the Benns have been going to church often in the build-up. Sims is a born-again Christian, Nigel is a man of God and Conor has followed that path, too. And this is something else Nigel has gratitude for.

“I think he had a tough time [with] at religion going to school,” Nigel said of his boy.

“He found it very hard. But now, he knows that he needs faith and he realised everything that he went through [with regards to the doping tests], he thought like, ‘Why did God let him go through things like that?’ And now he’s seeing, we don’t understand why he went through it, we might never know why he went through that but he knows that, without Jesus, he would never have been here. He would have been six-foot under. I believe that he was suffering with depression the day that Jesus got him through all this.”

Conor has spoken about the gloom that descended as he tried to prove his innocence and fought the authorities tooth and nail until he was allowed to fight in British rings again. But it wasn’t just Conor who felt it. Seeing his son through that period took a toll on Nigel, too, and he, of course, remains convinced his son is a clean athlete.

“I was suffering with him because I stayed in England for six months. And so what he was going through, you’re watching your young boy broken,” Nigel recalled. “And yeah, I don’t even drink. I ended up drinking, this is no word of a lie. For six months, I must have drunk a half a bottle of wine at night. I don’t drink. And plus I had bipolar, so everything I was taking was really affecting me. And then when I come back to Australia, I was sitting on the bed and [wife] Carol said, are you alright? And I just burst out crying because I think to myself, ‘I just watched my son go through that.’ But yeah, it affected me as well. And I didn’t realise I just had to get out of that. It went on for a while. But by the grace of God, we both got through it. And now we’re looking at the other side and we’re in a great position. Three beautiful kids, a lovely wife. He’s got everything you could ever dream of. I don’t know if I can say [it was good] God putting him through that and the way he went through that, but he’s come through the other end and he’s in a good place now. He’s in a good headspace. “Very good headspace.

“I think after this fight, when he’s got that belt around his waist, I don’t know where he’s going to go. I don’t know who he’s going to be looking at. But he’s going to have so much opportunities. I know he’s going to win that fight. I’m 100 per cent sure.”

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It’s been more than three decades since Nigel Benn saw his name up in lights in Las Vegas. This week, he has seen his son, Conor, repeat that feat ahead of his WBC welterweight title challenge of Ryan Garcia.

“I think I’m just going to take a picture of it, frame it, put it up on the wall… WBC champion,” Nigel said, asked how it would feel to see his son’s likeness in Sin City.

“You know what I mean? That’s it really, knowing that my son’s made it, to have his name up in lights like I did in Vegas. How good is that? And fighting out at the T-Mobile, brilliant, brilliant.”

Benn had some big fights against some top Americans, including Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, and Gerald McClellan, who travelled to London to face the Essex warrior in a tragic fight that McClellan never fully recovered from. Benn had five consecutive US bouts between 1989 and 1990, having lost to the brilliant Michael Watson before he returned to England for his historic fight against Chris Eubank.

He has been in Los Angeles in camp with Conor before they arrived in Sin City this week, and just three months ago, Benn was in the sleepy town of Canastota in upstate New York to be inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

Benn is a very fit 62 years old. He won 42 times as a pro, lost five and had one draw – which came in the Eubank return.

One of his big wins came in Vegas, 36 years ago last month, when he destroyed Iran Barkley in a roughhouse one-round blitz.

Benn remembers mauling the New Yorker well.

“I didn’t actually want the three-knockdown rule,” he said. “Because I know for a fact I would really have ironed him out. I knew that. I think we were fighting in eight-ounce gloves. I don’t even think there were 10-ounce gloves then, they were little small gloves and I mean, I was hitting him hard. He hit me but I just knew that I had the strength to stop him. And I would have stopped him. I know I would have stopped him. I really would have stopped him. I didn’t want the three-knockdown rule.”

Benn and Barkley have only crossed paths once since, at a WBC convention, and Barkley has constantly labelled Benn as a dirty fighter.

“He still keeps whinging and all that. I hit when he was on the ground and all things like that,” said Benn.

“Dirty fighter.”

“All that rubbish, you know what I mean? It was the emotion that got me. When he got up, he was okay. It’s just he wasn’t going to beat me, that’s it, so they’ve got to make up some frigging excuse. Americans like doing that when they’re not on top.”

Whatever Benn says, the history books show he took on some audacious challenges. It is his heart, spirit and courage that eventually got him his plaque at the Hall of Fame.

Ironically, the Hall of Fame reached out to me to get in contact with Benn, and he wasn’t having it. He didn’t want anyone to have his number and so told Ed Brophy, via me, to go through his lawyer.

“I’ve heard about being inducted many years ago,” Benn laughed. “I didn’t know if it was real. I just thought ‘Oh no.’ I just thought it might have been a Mickey Mouse company. I really don’t know.”

I’d told Nigel it was legitimate, but he remained suspicious.

“And then, when I found out it was real, me and my wife, we were over there,” he said. “It was a good experience meeting all the ex-world champions, referees, that was really nice. I enjoyed it and it’s like I look at it, it’s the guy from little Ilford, Essex getting inducted to the International Boxing Hall of Fame. It was just amazing, and then you go down and they’re driving cars down these roads in the parade and you’re waving at everybody and the street is all packed with people down there and it’s going on for a couple of miles. It’s just an experience. I was part of that [2026 class] with Antonio Tarver and Triple G [Gennadiy Golovkin], so what a great time to get inducted to the Hall of Fame and Nigel Benn’s in there.”

This year, both Benn and bitter rival Eubank Snr were on the ballot but only Nigel was elected.

Does he think Eubank should follow him in?

“I don’t know, really,” Benn said.

*

The relationship between Benn and Eubank is complex at best. They could not be any more different. Benn was a straightforward warrior, no frills. Eubank was the show pony, substance, yes, but style, too.

But Benn’s body of work included top US fighters and that is, he contends, what sets his career apart from Eubank’s.

“I think because I fought everybody,” Benn said. “I didn’t avoid nobody. I went over to America and I fought. I fought all the best, they put their best over here and I fought them all. I didn’t avoid nobody. Anybody that they put in front of me, I came to fight. I didn’t have hand-picked fighters. I fought everybody that come my way, win, lose or draw, fighting Eubank, fighting Watson, fighting Steve [Collins], fighting Gerald McClellan, fighting Iran Barkley, fought Doug DeWitt, Robbie Sims, everybody. Didn’t avoid anybody in my time. Nobody.”

Eubank has often talked about facing less capable fighters to maximise his earning potential. That was not Benn’s attitude.

“No. I didn’t do that,” he added. “I just think fighting the people that the public wanted to see… I didn’t care. I’d fight anybody, whoever they put in front of me. That was my whole attitude. I just wanted to fight. The British public, I know the kind of fights that they like and that was me. Didn’t avoid nobody.”

It was after he was upset by the superb Watson that he travelled to the US to train. Benn went to the gyms and learned what he could from some of the best fighters and coaches and there was a marked difference in gym cultures.

“Yeah, it was different because I actually didn’t really like sparring,” Benn revealed. “But in America, they live for sparring. That’s their life, sparring. I wasn’t like that. All I needed, all I wanted to do was just get my distance. Some fighters, you look at Tommy Hearns, you look at Terry Norris, all of them, they’re all punch drunk because you know what they’d done? They had wars in the gym, left it in the gym. I wasn’t going to be one of them people.”

Benn is in shape today, and he believes the discipline he has has allowed him to keep his health.

“I kept all my faculties intact and I keep training, I train twice a day, every day without fail,” he said. “So I’m always keeping myself active. I’m in good shape.”

Benn was in some brutal fights, but it was never about how he might be remembered. It was about testing himself against the best. His legacy stands there now, but he never considered it at the time.

“Do you know what? You know, at that time, Tris, I wasn’t thinking about legacy,” Benn said.

“I’m just going out there and I’m just going to fight the best Americans that come my way… To Iran Barkley, to Doug DeWitt, to Robbie Sims. I just fought everybody that came my way.

“I didn’t care who they were. America got what? But, you know, I wanted to show them that, you know, that... Because back then, Americans were the best fighters. They had all the gold medallists in the Olympics and everything. I just wanted to fight whoever was around. As you know, I’m against everybody. I’m not going to avoid nobody. And in those days, if you want to be the best, you had to beat the Americans. And that’s what I did. I never lost to an American.”

*

It was a different story for Benn in England, where he lost to Watson, once to bitter rival Eubank and twice to Irishman Steve Collins.

Unlike Eubank, Nigel has remained on very good terms with Collins; Steve defeated Benn in the final two fights of the Dark Destroyer’s career.

There is a reverence in his voice when he talks about Collins.

“I think because me and Steve, we know what we have to do,” Benn explained.

“It’s not like the other person [Eubank Snr]… Me and Steve, we can go out, we work together [doing after-dinner speaking], me and Steve. When I come back to England, I’ll be working with Steve and Michael Watson. We have no pressure and no one’s trying to nick the stage, nick the limelight. We all work together. We all know that we all make a living together and we love it. You know, we don’t try and talk about frigging poetry and all that rubbish while we’re talking… while we’re talking about our careers.

“He’ll come out with a poem or something rubbish like that, it kills the atmosphere all the time. But with Steve, we talk, we laugh, we joke, we’ve got time for each other.”

While the bouts involving Eubank Jnr and Conor were sold with the backdrop of spite, both appear to have mildly softened their stances on one another since.

But the fathers’ up-and-down relationship continues as they both mature, and it was the fights between the youngsters that seem to have driven a further wedge between the dads.

Eubank Junior contends he was ill and terribly weight-drained, which resulted in his rematch loss to Conor after he edged their first bout, a war, on points.

“Right, right,” Benn added.

“Let me explain something. How many fights has Eubank fought at middleweight? Most of his career. All of a sudden, he fights a welterweight and then ‘Oh, I’m struggling at the weight’ but all through his career he’s fought at middleweight?

“‘Oh, I’m struggling. I’m going to let people see me sweating.’ Mate, grow up. And then Eubank [Senior] said, ‘Oh look, they’re trying to kill my son.’ Nobody’s going to kill your son. Your son’s like 33 or 34 years old. He knows what he’s doing. He’s fought at middleweight all the time but all of a sudden – and this is what drives me up the wall – Eubank Senior comes in there saying like, ‘Oh, they’re trying to kill my son.’ Nobody’s trying to kill your son. Your son chose to fight because he’s getting paid good and he knows he can make the weight, so that’s whatever he’d done. That was all down to him. Nobody had a gun to his head. That was all his decision. So when you come out with it all, it’s a load of baloney.”

Does that mean that the old opponents are no longer on good terms at all? There had previously been a thaw in their relationship.

“Nothing, we’re just like… we’re as far from the east to the west and the north to the south,” Benn said. “We’re just different people: me and Conor and Chris Eubank Senior and Junior, we’re just different people. Before the fight, at the weigh-in, I went to shake his [Senior’s] hand and he put his arm in my chest and I thought to myself, ‘You got no respect. You ain’t got no class.’ He thinks he’s all class but you know what… I thought, ‘How are you so disrespectful’ and I told him to, ‘F off, don’t come near me.’ That was it. And he was lucky that I didn’t actually put my fist in his face because that was so disrespectful, but I won’t speak to him again anyway. Got nothing to do with him.

“Me and Chris set this platform for them [the sons], we set a platform for them… You know he loves the limelight, but hey, ‘Chris, look what we done.’ It’s sad because of how he’s carrying on. He just wants to be in front of the cameras posing and doing what he normally does. We don’t care. So when he comes out and put his elbow in my chest like that, I thought, ‘Mate, nah.’ He ain’t doing that again to me. I got no time for him. I’ll never work with him again. “We’ll never do a show with him ever again.”

**

Benn has been absorbed into Conor’s camp for this fight. He and Tony Sims have been pumping iron at Gold’s Gym where they managed to see Arnold Schwarzenegger working out, but the Austrian icon escaped before doing any pictures with anyone.

But Benn is about peace now. He’s religious, and thrilled that Conor has followed him and has the church as a significant part of his life.

Nigel has suffered openly with depression, but his love for his family is his priority when it comes to enjoying life today.

“My journey is me now spending time now, I’m over the other side of the clock [living in Australia], it’s about me now spending quality time with my wife. That’s all,” Benn said. “All I want to do is travel the world with her now, once Conor’s fight is out of the way, all I’m going to do is dedicate my time to my wife … My little boy Levi, he wants to be a professional footballer. Now I’m going to have to channel my energy into him. He’s 16 now and he’s a good little footballer and I can see God’s hand is upon him. He’s an anointed one and I want to see him do well, like Conor, so I’m going to try my best to help my little boy get there and that’s what I’m going to do: spending quality time with him because he’s coming back to England. First, he’s going to Barcelona to play football out there, then he’s coming to France and then back to England, then we go back to Australia. So he’s got the opportunity. I’m just encouraging him to get that mindset like what Conor’s got.”

That is the mindset Nigel had, too, as one of the great British boxing warriors and, yes, as a Hall of Famer, even if he thought it was a prank.

(Pictures courtesy of Matchroom Boxing)

Part 2 is coming tomorrow and will feature Nigel talking about Conor and his upcoming fight with Ryan Garcia, Conor leaving Matchroom, the dark days they’ve shared and much more

WBC president Mauricio Sulaiman is headed to Las Vegas to preside over the big T-Mobile Arena bout between WBC welterweight champion Ryan Garcia and challenger Conor Benn. Here, we’ve spoken about Zuffa’s arrival in the sport, Benn-Garcia, Turki Alalshikh, why the title is not yet on the line between Noël Mikaelian and Jai Opetaia, where Fury and Joshua should take place and what he does to relieve stress.

Okay, Mauricio, it’s been a while since we’ve actually had a catch-up, so how has 2026 been for you and the WBC?

Well, it’s been a sensational year in many ways. The activity worldwide has been tremendous, great fights, great match-ups, historic events, a fight at the Pyramids, which was unbelievable, also to see the Tokyo Dome sell-out with Inoue and Nakatani.

So it’s been a great year overall, and I believe that boxing is in very good shape, with many great fights coming up in the second half of the year, and I feel very well about the status of the sport.

You mentioned there a couple of highlights, but what are the biggest challenges boxing is facing right now?

Well, the challenges are the constant battle between the promoters and the networks and the creation of that league that has created too much confusion regarding the changing of the law [the Ali Revival Act] in the United States, which has not happened. Everybody is talking in different directions, but boxing is global.

Boxing is a sport that depends on the value of the fighters, and every fighter comes from different backgrounds, from different countries. They all come from a platform that is already established, that begins with a small gymnasium, small trainers, small promoters, and they come up the ladder to become superstars. I’m hopeful that all these powerful entities will continue to work together, will continue to try to make things happen, and that boxing grows as a sport deserves to grow worldwide.

And this week is an example of them actually working together. Obviously, Zuffa have the show but Ryan is a Golden Boy fighter and they’re fighting for a WBC belt, having said that they weren’t necessarily going to follow the sanctioning bodies. So this week is an example of people working together, is that right?

That’s absolutely right. It’s a great example. I am very proud of both our champion Ryan Garcia and challenger Conor Benn. The way they both have spoken about the WBC green belt is humbling.

Ryan has displayed his belt with pride, and Conor has proudly given many interviews saying how much he has dreamt of conquering the green belt that his father won decades ago. So it is a special fight and the attention will be fully on Las Vegas at the T-Mobile Arena, with television networks working together, Paramount and DAZN, Golden Boy and Zuffa. So it’s a good moment for the sport.

Hopefully, that will carry on, with more agreements and more understanding that we all can work together.

And your cruiserweight title is on the line too, right, with Noël Mikaelian against Jai Opetaia.

Not at this moment.

The WBC ordered Noël Mikaelian, who is WBC cruiserweight champion, to fight David Benavidez. And Benavidez’s promoter Samson [Lewkowicz] reached an agreement with Mikaelian’s promoter Don King. They reached an agreement to fight in December and Mikaelian went ahead and committed himself to another fight other than the one that the WBC had ordered.

We have made a strong effort to mediate, to try to accommodate all parties to make this work, and we’re still hopeful that the promoters can work it out between themselves and make this a WBC fight.

Do you have a deadline for that?

Well, there’s never a deadline.

Our goodwill is on the table. I remember when Cotto fought Canelo, we were still in the arena an hour before the fight trying to solve it and resolve a problem. So it is not about deadlines or threats.

It is simply about rules, about the facts that are clear and our good disposition to try to make things work out. We accept agreements between promoters. We accept step-asides.

We accept people reaching agreements to grow something for the future. So we will see what happens this week.

Ryan Garcia is a big favourite to beat Conor Benn. Do you see it that way?

I don’t think it’s a landslide. I think Conor Benn is coming off an unbelievable win against Eubank and, being such a brave and strong fighter, has all the chances in the world in the fight.

I think people are expecting an exciting fight, though, with obviously Ryan being so quick and Conor so aggressive.

Yes, the styles are what make big fights. Conor Benn is an aggressive fighter, has a good technique and Ryan has fast hands… and his power, his ring generalship.

It’s going to be a tremendous fight this Saturday night.

I know that the belt is on the line for that main event. Does it bother you that they’re not putting WBC on the posters and marketing materials? They’re just saying world title.

It doesn’t bother me. We know what the fight is all about. I hope it was a mistake by a human being doing the art or artificial intelligence doing the artwork.

But this is not exclusive. We have seen other fights in the past where they do not put the WBC belt, the WBC logo, the WBC letters... That is not proper and it takes a little bit away from the hype and the importance of the event, but it doesn’t bother me.

I don’t think it was done with bad intentions.

They didn’t include it with the IBF middleweight title in Ireland when Aaron McKenna won the title last month and they called it a world middleweight title fight, but they didn’t credit the IBF either. So I don’t know.

Maybe it is human error. I’m not sure. Well, it’s minor things.

I am not into getting into arguments about this. I believe things will be working better in the future for everyone. And, of course, artwork is a beautiful piece that remains for eternity.

When we see posters from the era of Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Leonard, all those great fights, Lennox Lewis and Naseem Hamed, it’s always nice to see what that event was for. So it’s one small piece of a big puzzle that should be resolved.

Obviously, both fighters have had positive tests before for PEDs. Has there been testing for this through the Clean Boxing Program?

Yes, yes. They’re both enrolled in VADA and tests have been performed. And also both fighters have submitted the safety weigh-ins, the 30, 14 and seven-day weigh-ins – they’re en route to making the weight this Friday.

There are critics out there who don’t think Conor should be ranked number one at welterweight given he’s not been down at that weight for so long. What would you say to those people?

Well, I respect anyone who has a critical belief. I respect it.

The WBC has been in very close communication with Conor Benn for several years. He was mistreated and abused through a missed or a positive anti-doping test, a banned substance. We did full research that took a lot of effort, a lot of resources from the WBC.

We had meetings with Conor personally and the ruling from the experts proved him not guilty. He was maybe banned… or he suffered the consequences for two years. But all this time we kept close to him and he always expressed his desire to fight for the WBC welterweight title.

He took and advised us of the fights he was doing against Eubank at a higher weight, these being two good opportunities for him to make the money that he made. But at all times he requested the WBC to keep him at welterweight and after his last fight he contacted me directly and pleaded to be named mandatory contender for the winner of Barrios-Garcia, which we did.

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I talked to Tyrone McKenna a few weeks ago ahead of his big fight with former sparmate Paddy Donovan in Dublin’s historic Croke Park.

There has always been so much value, for me, of taking yourself out of your comfort zone in camp and paying the price, and often that means travelling and often that means travelling to America.

It’s different out there, as McKenna eloquently describes.

Here, we speak in the midst of his camp ahead of his crunch crash on Saturday.

Hey Tyrone, thanks for doing this. Do you feel it’s another level, going to Philadelphia to prepare?

Yeah, it’s a different level. The last few years, I think, I’ve kind of just picked the easy way, the easy camps back home, and I’m training. It’s still hard training back home, but when you go away, you come over to Philly, it’s just a different level.

I’m sparring some world-class fighters. I’m in the gym with Boots, Andy Cruz, some unbelievable world champions. Bozy is a world-class coach, so the training’s just next level. It’s really, really tough, but it’s the best camp that I could get myself.

What made you decide to go out there, and why specifically Philly?

Bozy actually phoned me. I started off my career in Bozy’s gym years back. Twelve years ago. I had about three fights with him before he was even a major name in coaching. Before Boots was even known, he wasn’t even pro at the time, and he had me boxing absolutely unbelievable. He had me quite possibly in the best form I ever was in. So when he phoned me just before this fight was announced, he said he wants me back over.

He thinks that he can get me the win. He believes in me. He knows what he’s doing.

He can bring out the best in me, and I thought, you know what? This is a massive opportunity. It’s a historical night, and when I get this win, it catapults me into massive, massive fights.

So I want to give myself the best opportunity possible. I thought coming over here, being away from my family again, being away from my kids, just focusing on boxing, being in a camp where it’s tried and tested… There are world champions in there.

There are some of the best fighters in the world in that gym, and Bozy is an unbelievable coach. So I think this is my best chance to be part of that.

Getting up, I’ll be sore. I’ll be working very hard. I’ll be doing weights.

I’ll be doing sprints. So I’ll not be feeling fresh every day. So there are days that I’ll spar shit.

But sparring, as long as you’re learning, you’re learning. And as long as the sparring opponent is better than your opponent that you’re fighting, it fills me with confidence. I can’t get any better sparring out here.

It’s perfect. I’m so confident going into this fight that Paddy isn’t as good as my sparring partners. Even some of the people you wouldn’t even know are over here.

Philly is just a boxing city. It’s a real tough city. Their average boxer would probably be British champion over in the UK.

They’re very, very tough places. Spars are very, very like a doghouse. You’re shouting at each other.

You’re giving each other shit during the rounds. I’m just out of sparring right now. Me and my sparring partner talking shit the whole time.

Giving each other shit throughout the whole rounds. So yeah, that’s just a different vibe out here. And I think you need to go through a kind of tough, tough sparring to get you ready for the fights.

I’m going to walk into this fight very confident and knowing that this guy is not as good as my sparring partners. It’s not going to be as tough as my sparring partner.

How far out of your comfort zone are you in terms of living?

I’m hating life. I’m hating every day. That’s where it’s going. I’m counting down every day to go home.

It’s just tough. It’s hard being away from the kids and the family. It’s hard to go into this gym.

Like, I’ve come from gyms back home where I was only sparring, maybe six or seven spars at camp. I’m sparring three times a week over here, every single week. It’s tough, tough work.

And it’s not just easy spars. This is hard, hard work. So yeah, there’s no comfort in this at all.

Like, I haven’t got an easy day. I’m dreading every single day. But it’s for a purpose.

It’s to get me in the absolute best shape. And I know I’m so confident I’m going to be in unbelievable shape on September 5th. There’s not going to be any what-ifs after this fight.

I’ve done absolutely everything I can do to win this fight. And I believe in myself. I’ve come on leaps and bounds.

And the change in me is massive. I think I’m going to shock a lot of fighters, or a lot of people, during this fight. I think people on the inside think, ‘He’s a bit washed up, and he’s passed it, and he’s not that good anymore.’

They’re going to be shocked.

Has it made you think about, ah, if I’d done this four or five years ago?

I wish I had done it 10 years ago. But then again, would I have been where I was if I did? It’s hard to say. Obviously, I was getting the fights back home. I mean, if I was over here, would I be getting fights for an American? Would it have been different? So I can’t really complain about my career.

My career’s been unbelievable until now. So it’s a change I needed for this fight. It would have been great to have stuck with Bozy from the start because he’s an unbelievable coach.

But I can’t regret my career. I’ve had an unbelievable career so far.

And you’ve got this underrated gauntlet of fights that you’ve been on. Like the last 10 or 12 have all been against very good fighters.

I think people, a lot of people, sleep on the people I fight. I always, as I’ve said, I want big fights or no fights. I’m not one of these guys that gets beaten and has three or four journeyman fights and then fights another big fight. I fight big fight after big fight.

Back to back to back, always. I want to get in. I want to be worried in my comps.

I want to have to get up in the morning. I know I have to put it in the gym or I’m going to get beat. I don’t want to be in a camp where I go, I can slack because I’m going to win this fight.

That’s not what I’m in boxing for. I’m in boxing to test myself in every aspect in life. I don’t want to be away from my family for a journeyman.

If I’m going away, I want to be away for a reason. And yeah, so I love being in big fights. I love being involved in big fights.

I love testing myself. Seeing how good I am.

And I was there in Waterford for possibly the best two-round fight I’ve ever seen, you against Dylan Moran.

And do you know what? Going out, that wasn’t the game plan, but sitting there before, and I’ve spoken on this before, I genuinely didn’t sleep the night before. I don’t know what happened, but I could not sleep for the life of me. And then I was getting in my own head.

‘You’re not going to sleep tonight. You’re not going to sleep tonight.’ And I didn’t.

I didn’t get one minute of sleep. And then I tried to sleep during the day. Same thing happened.

It was just in my own head and I couldn’t sleep. So going into that fight, I had five rounds maximum in me. And I said to myself, I need to go out, pile the pressure on, stop this guy as quick as possible, because if this goes past four or five rounds, I’m beat.

So I went out bombing. Thankfully, I got him out in two rounds, but if I’d have gone any longer, I’d have been in trouble.

I think, you know, consensus probably had you down as the favourite in both fights against Dylan, right? Which is fair, but going into this one with Paddy, obviously they’ll certainly have you down as the underdog.

There’s no pressure.

I had a lot of pressure on Dylan because a lot of people expected me to blow him out of the water. And at the end of the day, you’re in a fight, so anything can happen.

So I was in my head, and it was like, I need to win this fight, and there was a lot of pressure in that fight, whereas this fight, everyone’s written me off. Everyone.

I don’t realise, you know, how hard of a bastard that I am. Like, I’m out here. I’m training my bollocks off.

I’m on the other side of the world. I put absolutely everything in this fight. No one should write me off.

I’m very confident. As I said, there’s no pressure on me. There’s all the pressure on him.

He’s number one in the world. He’s this future star of Irish boxing, or an Irish star of boxing now. I’m just this old man that people think is washed out.

So it’s lovely to have the pressure like that, to have people really doubting you, to have the bookies not giving you a chance, because I know for a fact that this is a winnable fight for me.

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Have you done much with Paddy in the past?

I’ve sparred Paddy about 100 rounds. I’ve sparred Paddy about 50 times, so more than 100 rounds. We know each other inside out. But I wouldn’t read into spars.

We sparred each other for about four years solid. So there were times where he was in camp, and I was out of camp, so he’d probably got the better of me in those spars. There’s spars where he was out of camp, I was in camp, I was getting the better of him in those spars.

There’s spars where I was hungover and sparring him. There’s spars where he was probably hungover and sparring me.

I don’t think we ever sparred when both of us were in camp for a fight, to be honest. So it’s hard to read spars because you don’t know where people are at in their journey. How fit they are, how sharp they are.

Are they even taking it seriously? You actually can’t read spars. What I do know is we know each other’s faults, we know each other’s weaknesses, we know each other’s strengths. And I know he’s very good.

I don’t doubt that. I know how good Paddy is. But he is beatable.

And I’m confident in exploiting his weaknesses.

What do you think of his sort of Jekyll and Hyde performances against Crocker?

Yeah, well, I think Lewis made it easy the first fight. He didn’t know what to expect. And he kind of sat up perfectly for Paddy Donovan.

That’s the kind of style Paddy likes – is what Lewis was giving him. And I think Lewis came back, read the game plan from the first fight, and came up with a new game plan. And it worked a treat for him.

So, but yeah, it’s completely different. Lewis and me, we’re completely different fighters. So I don’t read into the fights previously.

I mean, he could have had an off day against Lewis the second time. Something could have happened or whatever. So you never know what it is.

I’m just preparing for the absolute best Paddy Donovan there is. I’m sure he’s preparing for the best Tyrone McKenna.

Is there a best fighter that you’ve faced so far in the pros?

Harlem Eubank was very, very good, I think. But it’s hard to say because sometimes your camps go better than other camps, so your fights are easier or harder.

I think with that fight, I didn’t spar enough. I wasn’t as sharp as I should have been in that fight. So Harlem Eubank was on his game that day.

He’s very fast, so it was a tough fight for me that night. But my favourite fight was Jack Catterall, even though I got beat.

It kind of announced me on the world stage. No one really knew me before then. Everyone thought I was going to get stopped and I gave it to Jack Catterall in a war. People loved it. I was only beat by a point.

I was put down two or three times that fight. I only lost by a point.

And I loved it. I loved announcing myself on the world stage that night.

What do you think of this occasion that you’re going to be a part of with Paddy, Croke Park, Katie Taylor, the whole thing?

Unbelievable. As I said in a few interviews, you would never have dreamed of us. It’s too big to dream. It’s huge.

It’s Croke Park. It’s the biggest stadium in Ireland. The last boxing event was Muhammad Ali.

That’s how long ago boxing was in that place. So you never would have thought, ‘I’m going to be boxing in Croke Park. That’s my dream.’

Because it’s nobody’s dream. Unless you’re an absolute legend like Katie Taylor. That’s the only person in Ireland who could ever achieve something like this, I guess.

And to be part of this is massive. There was everyone in Ireland queuing up to fight in this show. Apart from me, I didn’t even step up.

I didn’t even think I could get on the show. So I wasn’t even thinking about it. I genuinely was like, there’s no chance.

I’m trying to get other fights on different shows. And then out of the blue, my manager just texted me here. ‘It looks like you could be on the show.’

And I was like, ‘Fucking hell.’ And trying to keep it secret for three weeks, it was killing me.

And I was worried. I still didn’t believe it when I got told until he was saying it’s sealed.

I was still doubting. I was like, ‘Is it actually happening?’ Because every other boxer is saying they’re on it. We all can’t be on it.

So someone’s lying. So when I got the phone call to come down to the press conference, that’s when I knew it was definitely on. And honestly, it’s beyond my dreams.

It’s something I’ll talk about. I’ll be the new Carl Froch. I’ll be in the bars. I’ll be telling absolutely everyone, ‘Do you know I boxed in front of 80,000 people?’

That’s going to be my new line to everyone. I’ll be drinking on this for the rest of my life.

I’m just buzzing. I’m buzzing to be part of it.

(Main picture Mark Robinson/Matchroom Boxing, the remainder from McKenna’s Instagram)

To follow Paddy Donovan is to ride the roller coaster.

The crushing disappointment of throwing away a lead only to be disqualified against Lewis Crocker, the opportunity to put things right in the rematch only to be dropped twice and lose a decision and then to be written off in Germany as an underdog by many, only to score a superb win over dangerman Karen Chukhadzhian.

It’s been quite an 18 months for Donovan, who now, while sitting as the No. 1 contender for Liam Paro’s IBF title, faces old sparmate Tyrone McKenna on the biggest fight card in Irish history on Saturday night.

Donovan and McKenna will box at Croke Park on Saturday before 80,000 expectant fans, who will fill the stadium to watch Katie Taylor’s final fight against Flora Pili in the headliner.

The chance for Donovan to be part of the show while he waits for Paro, who incidentally claimed the title from Crocker, was too much for the Limerick southpaw to turn down.

“Obviously Tyrone is a very experienced fighter. He’s been here many times and it’s a fight that I can’t have a slip-up in, simply. It’s a must-win fight. I can’t allow myself any slip-ups, so I’m working really hard.”

I spoke to Donovan a couple of weeks ago as the fight drew near and McKenna rounded out his training in the US under coach Bozy Ennis.

Donovan had seen that his countryman had been in Philadelphia and knew it was a sign of how seriously McKenna is taking the job.

“It’s a very, very dangerous fight, it’s one where we have to be on our best game and same goes really for the two of us. It’s two experienced fighters and we’re fighting in front of 80,000 Irish fans. So we’d want to be we want to perform. So let’s see what’s gonna happen.”

As circumstances would have it, I was in Paddy Donovan’s locker room as he wept having lost to Crocker the first time, and I was in it again in Germany as he celebrated breathing new life into his career against Karen.

The relief was palpable. Promoter Eddie Hearn had made the trip to Mannheim and I had breakfast that morning with Andy Lee, who knew what the stakes were in Germany.

Wherever it takes Donovan now, it’s been a crazy journey for the pair of them. It was Donovan who brought Lee into the coaching sphere, such was his prodigious talent, and at the start of the ride, they looked for experienced men to spar. One was Tyrone McKenna.

“Let’s just say the start of my professional journey, I would have done a lot of rounds with Tyrone while he was at the peak of his powers, so we know each other pretty well,” Donovan recalled.

Asked for detail, he added: “Listen, to be fair, Tyrone has always been very durable, very, just very experienced really, you know. I’ve always been extremely talented and, yeah, the rounds were great. They’re a great experience for me and I’ve helped him a lot in his career at that time, so we learned off each other, but it’s in the past and anything can happen and I’m just looking forward to fighting with him.”

And Donovan is expected to win. He’s a significant favourite, with McKenna a 10/1 outsider. Of course, that takes the pressure off McKenna, but Donovan is looking forward to enjoying the occasion.

“It’s the first time that I really get the chance to express myself, but the Irish fans, really whether they’re supporting me or him, they’re gonna enjoy a cracking fight. It’s a southpaw fight, he’s durable, he’s Irish. There’s a lot to it, so I’m excited to see how it unfolds. The whole venue… the whole stadium… The event. I’m just looking forward to this one.”

It is hard to envisage a time when Paddy is not asked about Lewis and Lewis is not asked about Paddy.

Donovan saw his great rival lose his IBF title in Australia and felt Liam Paro – who Donovan is now in line to face – had done enough to deservedly win the fight.

“He won the early rounds, Lewis came on strong at the end,” recalled Donovan. “I think Lewis left it a bit late to up the gears and when he did up the gears Paro struggled the last two or three rounds, but this is a big chance for me. It’s a very, very big chance to win a world title and I was confident with Crocker and I was favourite to win the fight. I ended up losing the fight, but I think this fight would suit me a lot better than Crocker did. I’m a lot more experienced, a lot more hungry and I think it’s just my time. I’m 27. I’ve felt it all so far and I’m eager now to get in and just express myself, become a world champion.”

Matchroom lost both purse bids at the time, for Crocker to fight in Australia and Donovan to fight in Germany.

Does Donovan covet the Paro fight in Ireland?

**“**It doesn’t really matter,” he said.

“It doesn’t matter where you fight. They’re saying about Crocker and Paro and if it was at home [in Ireland] he [Crocker] would have got the nod, it wouldn’t be fair because Paro won the fight, deservedly won the fight. No matter where the playing ground was, Paro won the fight. So realistically, I really don’t give a heck where the fight’s gonna be as long as it’s just a fair decision. He beats me? Well and good. But if it doesn’t and we fight, I win the fight, just give me the decision. We move forward.

“Lately, it’s all about who’s at home blah blah blah. Who really cares? As long as the best fighter wins, that’s what boxing is about, the best fighter goes through to the next stage and it gives the best fighter a chance to express himself further in his career. Doesn’t matter where the fight’s gonna be, just as long as the fight’s gonna be fair. That’s all.”

Paddy has often been the main event already in his 15-2 (11 KOs) career. Now 27, he’s happy to play second fiddle tomorrow night because, of course, when Croke Park comes alive, it will be for Katie Taylor, and Donovan is just fine with that.

“Listen, it’s hard not to listen to the noise about Katie,” he smiled. “Katie is the greatest female fighter that has ever lived. She’s from the Emerald Isles. She’s the greatest athlete we’ve ever seen in this country or probably ever will see. She’s been amazing. It’s an amazing opportunity for me as well to be on her card. It’s my third time and I’m very, very excited. Katie has done amazing things for Irish boxing and she deserves everything because outside the ring and inside the ring she’s the greatest.”

Taylor is now 40, and while she has many years on the young Limerick man, Donovan has seen more than his fair share in and out of the ring.

I joked that he must feel nearer 37 than 27.

“It feels like that lately. It just feels like that, even for myself, I suppose boxing is a strange sport,” he sighed.

“Really, it’s an extremely unforgiving, unforgettable sport. So far in my career, there’s been ups and downs, clearly to be seen. But I think that’s what’s gonna make me a better champion. I think when my story is written, to look back at it, it’ll be one of the best boxing stories that ever come out of Ireland. The controversial fights with Crocker, not becoming a world champion and to go into Germany against Karen Chukhadzhianand let’s be realistic, he is one of the most avoided fighters in the welterweight division, no one wants to fight him, so going to Germany was an extremely dangerous thing to do. A lot of people wrote me off going there and that to lose that, three losses on the record, it would have been a hard bounce back, but thankfully we got the job done. Even though I felt very, very comfortable in the fight, I thought I won the fight quite clearly. I won it by the narrowest, so yeah, boxing is a crazy sport, but this is the journey that I’m on right now and it brought me to Croke Park and it’s brought me to fight Tyrone McKenna and challenging again for a world championship [if he moves on to Paro], so hopefully, God willing, it will all be worth it in the end.”

He pledged to go “full steam ahead” at McKenna and that he is looking to win in the “best fashion possible.”

“We called him Eddie Boy,” Donovan said. “My uncle Edward was just 49 and he passed away after a stroke shortly after the Karen fight. You know, all my family is quite a close-knit family, you know, it’s just one of them things. I’m going used to it. It feels like every fight now, Tris, before or after there’s a death in the family, so we’re a bit numb to it. We just continue to go forward really.”

And while there has been trauma both in and out of the ring, there has been a consistent presence in the shape of coach Andy Lee.

The two have become incredibly close, and Donovan has stayed on track largely as a result of Lee’s experienced and calming approach.

“Listen, without Andy, I’d be in a strange place. I don’t even want to say on here where I’d be. But I’ve a great team. Andy’s been monumental to me. Keith O’Sullivan in America has been the same thing. These guys keeping me on… It’s not about what Andy is doing because when I turn up to train, I’ll always be the same… very, very disciplined. I work extremely hard, but sometimes I can suffer outside the gym and I think Andy’s done a great job managing me, like what Jose Mourinho did with Chelsea or Alex Ferguson did with Manchester United to all the players. I think Andy is very, very good at managing all of us in our own aspects individually brilliantly. He’s done a great job and I’m still here. I’m still fighting and I’m still trying to keep on that path of becoming world champion, which is not easy. My God, it’s not easy.”

And yet, in what could be considered criticism for the likes of Lee, we are often told there are no teachers left. Donovan scoffs at that, of course.

**“**Listen, I think Andy’s become a student himself under Emanuel Steward and under Adam Booth and I think Andy is a teacher. He’s one of the best of what he does, not just an exceptional coach. Let’s just say maybe my story is not as dramatic as Mike Tyson and Cus D’Amato, but without Cus D’Amato, Mike Tyson would have suffered early on and Andy was that figure for me – simple as.

Does Donovan ever wonder whether he is being given advice that was given to Lee by Booth, or by Steward?

“Say in the lines of boxing-wise, I always question that, and for this camp I’ve been training a bit like the way Emanuel would have trained Andy, I suppose,” he explained. “But then there’s some fights where Andy will be on the pads and he’d be a bit like Adam Booth. But as a teacher, I think he’s so wise and intelligent. I think he has a bit of Adam and a bit of Emanuel. I think Andy is just a different breed, really. He’s the last of a dying breed, and thankfully he’s in my life.”

And Donovan’s life is dedicated to boxing, even through those ups and downs and even though he might no longer view it through the same lens.

“When you start any sport, you’re a kid, you’re enjoying the sport,” he said. “You’re doing it because you love it. But once you kind of come to an age where things really change, your mindset really changes, problem starts to come, family issues, blah blah blah, etc. But it goes for a lot of fighters.

“It’s not easy. I didn’t understand that it was going to be this tough or this challenging. But look, the main thing is just winning in the ring. Right now, Tyrone is in my way and it’s probably the first fight where I feel like not angry, but I really just want to get on with this, get Tyrone out of the way and go win the world championship. Just as simple as that really. I know it’s not an easy task to do but my God, I’m hungry now.”

Having defeated Mikaela Mayer, Chantelle Cameron believes she has never been in a better position in her career than she is now.

For someone who holds the only win over Katie Taylor in the Irish woman’s illustrious career, that is saying something.

Because beating Mayer, via decision, means she has the opportunity to face Mayer again owing to a rematch clause, or she could face US great Claressa Shields.

“I’m in a really good position and I feel like it’s full circle again,” said Cameron.

“This time I’m making sure that I’m soaking it all up. I’ve been in this position before and I kind of put myself under a rock. I just kind of disappeared and didn’t embrace the moment when I beat Katie Taylor. I didn’t want to do anything. Now I think I’ve got to soak it all up and take every moment.”

Her fight with Mayer attracted in the region of 400,000 viewers on Sky Sports, incredible numbers since Moses Itauma was fighting for a world title at the same time on DAZN.

It has loaded Cameron’s career up with enough momentum that she and her team have opened talks with Team Shields for a fight at 160lbs in America early in 2027.

“Claressa, her max [to drop down to] is 160, which is... She’s Claressa Shields. I’m not going to argue that. [If] that’s all she can get down to, that’s all she can get down to. And obviously it’s going to be giving away a lot of weight. But it is what it is.”

And Cameron, who walks around at about 154lbs, is perfectly happy to let Mayer wait.

While the pair had been amicable before their fight, an incident at the weigh-in saw sparks fly and Mayer’s post-fight defiance in the ring triggered a rivalry that will likely only be settled in a return.

“I look at it like this,” said Cameron. “Before my fight with Michaela Mayer, she was talking a lot about fighting Claressa Shields. So I felt like I was being overlooked. She was talking about her next opponent when I was stood right in front of her. So it was kind of like you’re underestimating me because you’re not obviously locked in on me. You’re thinking that I’m going to be a whitewash and you’re going to move on and fight Claressa Shields. But it didn’t go that way. And I’m seeing it as winner stays on. And if you were talking about Claressa as your next opponent, well, I beat you and Claressa wants to fight me. So I’ve accepted the challenge to Claressa. If the shoe was on the other foot, I would have been sat waiting. So this is how it works.”

While there might be bad blood manifesting between Cameron and Mayer, Chantelle reiterated several times: “I really do respect Michaela Mayer. I think she’s a phenomenal fighter. I think she’s great for women’s boxing. And I’ve always been a fan of hers. Like I would happily sit and watch her fight. And I’d even buy tickets to go watch her fight. I think she’s got great style.”

It was an exchange at the weigh-in which, in part, seems to have been a miscommunication as much as anything, that saw things change.

But, as Cameron said: “tempers frayed and emotions were high.”

How excited would Cameron be if she had the opportunity to fight the self-styled “GWOAT?”

Having fought Taylor, it’s not like she’s not fought the best before. But Cameron admits there is a different level of jeopardy with Shields.

“I’ll be really honest. I always knew I’d beat Katie Taylor. I knew that my style was all wrong for Katie Taylor. I’ve always been too much for Katie Taylor. Jessica McCaskill, Delfine Persoon, Amanda Serrano. They gave me the blueprint to beat Katie Taylor. But nobody’s come close to Claressa Shields. Nobody’s tested Claressa Shields. I think Claressa Shields has kind of just obliterated everyone in front of her. So it’s completely different. Like, Claressa Shields is a whole new challenge. I’’s like the impossible task kind of thing, which excites me because I can really wake up in the morning and think that fear factor of knowing what I’m coming up against. It’s like fighting a giant, isn’t it? It’s ballsy. It’s really ballsy what I’m going to do. But that’s what excites me. And that’s what I think is going to make people put respect to my name as well, thinking fair play to me because I really am stepping up to the plate and stepping up to the challenge. And I say, I say all the time, Claressa is an amazing fighter. Like her skillset, she does everything correct. I’ve seen no chinks in her armour.”

*

There is no love lost between Cameron and Irish star Taylor to the extent that Cameron has no intention of taking in Taylor’s final farewell at Croke Park on Saturday.

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On Saturday night, from my seat ringside at the O2 Arena, I saw Francis Warren happily bopping his head to Moses Itauma’s entrance music as his client made his way to join him in the ring.

Warren, like the thousands of fans in London, was expectant.

In 48 minutes or less, he would – he/we presumed – would be the manager of the IBF heavyweight champion of the world.

Alas, that honour is now bestowed on his opposite number, Keith Connolly, manager of Filip Hrgovic, the big Croat who was able to withstand Itauma’s excitable power and outlast him, when the 21-year-old went out on his shield, and on his feet, in the ninth round.

On Tuesday, I talked to Francis about the night, the fight, and the future. Battling a chest infection and having a few pieces to pick up, while also drawing positives from the night, he firmly believes he is still the manager of a future heavyweight world champion.

“Some guys just don’t move,” he said of Hrgovic.

Tris Dixon: I saw you buzzing when Moses was walking to the ring and loving it, then obviously next time I saw you was in the corridors afterwards. What a gamut of emotions.

Francis Warren: It’s just, you know… obviously I feel for him. The boxing’s one thing, but I just want to make sure he’s all right. I mean... And he seems in pretty good spirits, to be honest. I spoke to him a couple of times, he seems okay.

Well, I saw Itauma’s video that went out on Sunday and it was a very good video, I thought. He clearly wants to get back to it. Because, in today’s era of social media, I’ve seen some ask, ‘should Moses Itauma retire?’ Which is just...

Oh, are you joking?

No, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen the graphics and the thumbnails. Have you had much time with him? Or any time to digest anything with him?

I spoke to him Sunday morning and he seemed obviously very disappointed. And he just said, ‘Oh, I’m just gutted, I should be champion…’

I said, ‘Yeah, but you’re not, so just pull yourself together and get on with it.’ I think it’s sometimes best to be matter-of-fact, especially when it’s that raw. There’s no point doing a deep dive while you’re not even 12 hours after he’s got beat.

And I spoke to him yesterday and I said, ‘You just need to learn how to park the bus.’

(Author’s note: Soccer terminology for going defensive to run out the clock)

‘If you’re up in a fight and you’re not getting rid of someone, unfortunately, mate, you’re in a 12-round business. And sometimes you need to recognise that some guys will not shift. There are immovable objects in this world.’

I remember when Daniel [Dubois] boxed Kevin Johnson and everyone was like, ‘Oh, Daniel can’t punch.’ I mean, it’s fucking nuts.

But some guys just don’t move. Some guys are built for durability. And when you’ve got a trainer like Abel Sanchez and an experienced trainer, if you’re not going to stop him early, you need to have that capability to switch plans.

I don’t think anyone could have talked him [Itauma] out of trying to stop him. I don’t care who was in his corner, who was shouting advice at him, he had tunnel vision and I think he was ‘gone.’

David Haye said he would never have listened to Adam Booth who might have told him to ‘just box’ to start with against Carl Thompson… Moses didn’t have to blast anyone out, did he?

No, I mean, he was up. You’ve seen all the scorecards come out. I think the worst way around, he was 80-71 (80-71 twice and 79-72).

I mean, David Haye’s quite right when he said, ‘Do you really think Ben’s telling him to go out and knock his head off?’ Ben would have been, and you can clearly hear it now, in between the rounds, now that all the footage has been put out and has been clipped up, Ben was saying to him, ‘Just steady yourself and control the pace.’ But Hrgovic was smart, though. It’s almost like it was a bit of a rope-a-dope situation, I think, because he made it look like he was hurt, so then Moses would have fucking gone steaming into him and then he was going, ‘Oh, I’m all right, actually.’ So he’s smart, but that’s experience. And that’s what, unfortunately, Moses was lacking on the night and that’s what showed through.

That was it. That’s the only difference. It’s not skill set. It’s not determination. It’s not heart. All Moses was lacking was experience and round management.

And unfortunately, he’s had to learn on the job.

And obviously the thing is, you were getting the answers that you wanted until right at the end, weren’t you? He was showing heart. He was showing courage. He was getting the rounds that he needed under his belt and having stuff coming back his way. So it was going well until it wasn’t.

Did you see any signs before the ninth that it was like the tide was going to turn?

I thought he looked a bit puffed out at the start of round four. I do think he looked a little bit puffed out and I thought to myself, ‘Shit, you need to switch up the game plan here a little bit because this might go the wrong way here if you keep on as you are.’

But there was so much more left in the fight that I think it gave Moses the encouragement to carry on… Filip was basically giving him the come on, I think.

You know, Abel’s one of the top trainers in the world. And, at the end of the day… because I think in the seventh round, Moses started going, body-head, body-head, and I think that I was just like, ‘Right, just carry on that, carry on that.’ But then, when he got body-head, body-head, it almost gave Moses more encouragement to go and try and stop him again.

And then, unwittingly, he ran the tank ran dry.

Yeah. I mean, it was like taking a plug out, wasn’t it?

I know it’s not helpful, Francis, but everyone wants a scapegoat. Everyone wants a finger pointed at someone. Is there anyone to point a finger at?

No. I think, as a collective unit… we did everything we thought was right, from management to promoter to training to media team, everything.… maybe we could have controlled a few things a bit better in terms of making sure that his adrenaline levels were kept a bit lower pre-fight. Because I think he looked exhausted before he even got in there. A little bit. You know what I mean? You know when you say a boxer has over-trained? It’s not over-training, it’s that adrenaline spike at the wrong time, isn’t it?

It’s hard to control that without that experience as well. That’s the sort of thing that he can put in his back pocket now moving forward, but didn’t have beforehand.

Yeah, for sure. But it’s all down to experience. And if he doesn’t learn from it, then the whole thing was a waste of time. If he learns from it, it will be in the making of him… there’s a coming-of-age fight. Although he didn’t get the win, you could argue that might have been his coming-of-age fight.

Another thing David said to me was, ‘Your career starts from when you know who you are.’ Because until you go through that, you might have your own questions. Obviously, everyone was asking Moses, ‘What happens if..’ and he must have been wondering that himself because he didn’t know.

Well, one thing’s for sure, he’s got a chin. One thing’s for sure is that he’s got a massive, massive set of balls on him. Because even though he was wavering at the end of the eighth round, I think not a lot of guys probably would have got up off their stool for the ninth round. And you could see Filip, he was like a bull, wasn’t he? He couldn’t wait to get back at him at the beginning of the ninth round. But even that minute rest at the end of the eighth round, it wasn’t enough. His gas tank was completely empty, but he still got up. He still tried his hardest. And even just before the fight was stopped, he still threw a big shot and caught Filip.

And Filip was ‘gone’ as well. He was exhausted. It just came down to round management and a bit of ring nous, which Moses will definitely have now.

And not many people have had that experience at 21. So he’s in good stead for the future, for sure. It’s just very disappointing for him.

I’m not being blasé about it. It is a disappointment. It’s a step back.

But what do they say? The comeback is better than the setback?

What happens next? I don’t think Moses is going to be afforded a step down as such because he’s such big news now. And everyone’s going to be interested to see what happens.

If you look at his last three fights, Dillian [Whyte], Jermaine [Franklin]… So Dillian headlined in Saudi. Jermaine headlined in Manchester and he headlined at the O2. And there was not a ticket left. Boxing is not under the radar. It’s the forefront of most people who are into sport. It’s football then boxing at the moment, isn’t it? So when you’ve got the notoriety that Moses has already got at such a young age, and it’s not like he just went out there and got chinned in a round because it then would probably be a bit more of a difficult comeback story. He went out there, showed the heart of a lion, and there was definitely... I mean, you saw not one person left until everyone knew he was all right.

The crowd was still there singing his name whilst he was being helped out of the arena. He’s got fans. He’s got support.

And everyone knows who he is, so I think, you know, does he have to headline again straight away? No. But could he? Yes.

I suppose partly because of the storyline, right? Because everyone would be wanting to see what he does. But in terms of your job, it’s now really hard, isn’t it, from a matchmaking perspective? Because you don’t really want another blowout either. But at the same time, you don’t want the same risk attached to the next one.

I’m not going to start chucking names about. But in the same way, Moses, he’s already said to me he wants to get straight back on the horse and back up at the top level. So it’ll be a discussion between all of us as to what we think the right move is, what we think the right fight is. But if you ask Moses, I mean, he’d fight Filip again for his next fight.

He definitely would. However, there is work to do, there’s prep to do, there’s things to work on. And as I’ve said, he’s 21 years old and he’s got plenty of time to make sure that next time he’s in this situation history doesn’t repeat itself. You’re a fool if you don’t learn from your mistakes. And let’s get it right, it definitely wasn’t a perfect performance because he’s not a world champion, he went too big too quick. But he’ll know not to do that again.

Yeah, and obviously your dad is well experienced in this. When Breidis Prescott blew away Amir Khan, two fights later Khan was world champion.

Yeah, I mean, a bit of masterful matchmaking if I do say so myself, me and Dean Powell put the Kotelnik fight together

And I think he had the Fagan and the Barrera fights and then he fought for the title…

And then he won the super lightweight title and he boxed absolutely flawlessly. But you learn from it. And I think that’s the biggest message I think that Moses will take on board here is that you’ve got to learn from it because if it happens twice, then there’s serious question marks.

If it happens once, it’s just a bit of inexperience. So he’s 21 years old. He’s still got the world at his feet.

He’s just gone nine very, very, very good rounds and won nine rounds – or won eight rounds – against one of the best heavyweights of the last 10 years.

He’s now up to 40 rounds [as a pro]. The last round on Saturday night was his 40th round of boxing. So put that into perspective.

And tell me that he hasn’t got room to learn and to make sure that the experience he had on Saturday night… He’s got a lot of room to lean on that and make sure he goes on from it.

It would be very easy to say like, and I’m sure there’s a lot, well, I know there’s a lot of after-timers out there, but when you look back on it, it’s still hard to say that it was the wrong fight, isn’t it? It was just the wrong, he just fought it the wrong way.

Definitely not the wrong match to make. I think you’ve just taken the words out of my mouth, Tris. It’s just he didn’t hold up when he needed to hold up. He didn’t recognise the signs that Filip wasn’t going to go anywhere. I mean, if you ask Filip, who’s the better boxer out of you and Moses, he’s definitely going to say, technically-wise for sure, I think he’d give Moses the nod ahead of him. But Filip’s got the more experience.

It’s such a tough one to analyse, Tris, isn’t it? Because he’s won every round, so it’s hard to say that he’s getting it wrong, but it’s just… you can’t keep up that pace for that amount of minutes. You just can’t do it.

And nobody on this planet could have done that apart from Ricky Hatton against Kostya Tszyu, of course, that’s the only one I would say is different.

With regards to the future, and obviously everyone’s coming under the spotlight, but do you imagine Moses fights Hrgovic down the line? Because that’s a huge rematch, but Hrgovic is talking of boxing in Croatia, unifications, he has Frank Sanchez to consider… but I’m saying like a year or 18 months down the line, do you envisage it possibly being a thing?

I’m sure he would want to do it again, run it back… Everything’s out there, isn’t it? And available. But first and foremost, he’s just got to get back on the horse and make sure his next fight is the right fight for him to continue his development. And that’s the thing, he’s still developing, isn’t he? He’s not even found his man strength yet, I don’t think. He’s 21. What is he going to be like at 24, 25? He is going to be a monster.

All right, Francis.

I just want to say massive congratulations to Filip.

It was a great fight and a fair play for stepping up in the first place, because you’ve got to remember, this wasn’t for a world title. This was just a fight originally. So it wasn’t like there was any accolades at the end for anybody apart from getting a win.

So the world title’s a massive bonus, but for both guys stepping up to the plate and having this fight, that’s what it’s about. It’s the fight game. And unfortunately, there has to be a loser.

Unfortunately, it was Moses on Saturday… It will be a fantastic journey and I don’t think it’ll be too long before he’s back in that, I don’t want to mention the words world title, but up there amongst the best and fighting against the best. He won’t want to be taking backward steps and going back to guys that he’s guaranteed he’s going to beat. I think he needs a bit of jeopardy in his mindset.

And there are guys out there that will give him that spike on his back that he needs probably to get him going again. So it’s going to be exciting and I’m very much looking forward to the next chapter.

Just one last one, Francis, then I’ll leave you to it. I do appreciate you making the time. But do you anticipate him being out this year?

If not by the end of this year, it’ll be early next year.

That would be my advice to him. Obviously we’re not making any grand plans at the moment. It’s a bit too fresh and a bit too raw.

I don’t think he should be sitting out for two or three months just reflecting, because it will drive him round the twist. I think these guys, after a setback like that, they need to get back on the saddle when it’s time for them. But he shouldn’t be waiting too long. I think December, January would be an ideal time frame for him.

Yeah, great. Okay, Francis, look, really appreciate it.

Thank you.

(All photos courtesy of Queensberry Promotions)

He was speaking about Moses Itauma’s shock loss to Filip Hrgovic on Saturday at London’s O2 Arena, and it reminded him of his early career loss to veteran Carl Thompson.

Haye was quickly taken back to Wembley in 2004 , when he lost to Thompson having dominated early when, like Itauma, he unravelled and was stopped.

Haye, now, though, believes the loss is the making of the 21-year-old Itauma.

“And there’s very few fighters who go through their career and never lose,” Haye adds. “Very, very few…. You’ve got to figure out who you are and what works for you and you don’t know what works until you know what doesn’t work. And this is the start of Moses Itauma. This is when he realises, ‘Okay, I know where I am. This is where I can beat a world class fighter over seven rounds doing what I was doing. So I can either train in a way where I can throw the amount of punches I was throwing for a few more rounds, or reduce it down, maybe not throw so many power punches, maybe mix the power punches with sharp little looser punches. There’s so much. The door’s open for him to design his style.”

Haye, who stuck with his coach Adam booth through the rockiest of waters, implored Itauma to remain with coach Ben Davison.

“Him and Ben need to sit down, watch the fight, from start to finish, and go ‘Okay, what are we going to do now. How are we going to make this over 12 rounds. How are we going to do it. How are we going to play it? Who are we going to spar with? What are we going to practice?’ And start from now,” Haye continues. “What a great place to start, being that cloe to being heavyweight champion of the world.

“He’s been very comfortable up to this point. It was very uncomfortable on Saturday night and he [Itauma] needs to bring that uncomfortableness into camp [in the shape of formidable sparring partners].”

LONDON – It’s fight week in the capital as Moses Itauma and Filip Hrgovic prepare to do battle for the vacant IBF heavyweight title. There is a gravitas that has become attached to the fight, not just because of the IBF’s belt but because of what Itauma stands for: the future, the next generation, hope.

At a moment when DAZN – who exclusively broadcast the fight – tries to balance hardcore boxing fans, younger audiences, short-form content, long-form storytelling and an increasingly competitive market, I sat down with Alfie Sharman, the vice president of marketing at DAZN, to talk about the boxing landscape.

And DAZN have gone big on Itauma-Hrgovic with, as Sharman points out, advertising everywhere from Penzance to Inverness.

Before hitting record, we spoke a little about Itauma-Hrgovic and then sat down for a longer conversation about the sport – and DAZN’s place in it.

Tris Dixon: What you said there was actually really interesting [about Itauma’s specific skills] because that sort of feeds into one of my, I don’t want to say gripes, but one of the things I’ve seen a lot of is obviously when you talk about the subtleties of a jab and setting something up, you’ve got to feed two audiences, haven’t you? There’s the hardcore audience but you’ve also got to grab the casuals. And what I’ve sort of...

Alfie Sharman: You think we’re neglecting the diehards?

Well, what I’ve written about is that tough thing, I really appreciate your situation at DAZN, but I’ve always felt I’ve understood what DAZN want to do.

I do feel like there’s two things, there’s two masters that you need to serve, though, and obviously one is grab the short-form content and the reels and the Mount Rushmores and stuff, which obviously aren’t designed for people like me. But then you’ve got the other side where there is scope to do long-form stuff and tell the stories. And people say there’s no storytellers now, but it’s because people – I’ll throw a stone and say, like DAZN – want the short-form, bite-size stuff.

Problem is, you want people to invest in the characters, but if the characters aren’t out there, what are they investing in? Because they can’t invest in the clips where they’re seeing Brian Norman talking about someone else’s dress sense.

I know, yeah. Well, you’re a subscriber to DAZN, aren’t you?

Yeah, from day one.

And I mean, have you watched any of our recent Locked In long-form stuff?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I agree with you, by the way. We are constantly trying to spin two plates because we are a growth business. Let’s be honest, Tris, I’m not saying boxing was in a bad place before, but the injection of capital from DAZN over the last five-plus years, as well as Turki Alalshikh and other people, has opened up the opportunity for fighters to fight more, for more money, to bigger audiences, globally. Because we, make no mistake, sell pay-per-views in over 200 markets. Of course, this is a UK show, there’ll be people in the US and Croatia, but to your point, we have to spin those two plates. Long-form content and storytelling is, without doubt, because when you’re making something about Moses, and he’s such a young guy, you see his knockout ratio and you see his highlight reel and that kind of hooks a lot of people, but that will only go so far.

There comes a point where you need to scratch beneath the surface and start to understand who these people are – good or bad. Go back to Mike Tyson. Obviously, people were just transfixed by his personality, where he came from, the Cus D’Amato story, New York, the pigeons, everything.

We’re trying to do that with fighters. Now, obviously, to do that across all the promoters who have an abundance of talent is challenging. However, I do think, and I can assure you that we are hearing that because you’re not the first person that’s poked me on that in a professional environment, but also from out in the street.

I suppose the thing is as well, there’s also two audiences because the younger audience, like my 20-year-old son, for instance, he might click on the short-form content but I can’t see him putting his hand in his pocket. But the storytellers, once you’ve got the stories, the people with that disposable income, it’s also a different market.

And this is me speculating about the marketplace, but someone who’s 40 maybe might have that disposable income, wants to hear the stories. And they’re the ones spending the money, aren’t they?

Well, as you said there, it’s an important point. Propensity to pay is the challenge because one thing that DAZN, by design, is trying to do is, I always say this, we are attempting, we are succeeding. We haven’t succeeded, it’s a journey. But we’re trying to fundamentally change consumer behaviour towards boxing.

Casual fans are quite happy to dip in once or twice a year, pay a premium, certainly in the US, $90 to $100 for a pay-per-view and then leave. Whereas we’re saying, ‘No, no. You should come back every week because there’s so much more for you.’

Which actually, to your point, plays into how important it is that once people get into the DAZN ecosystem, that we are giving them and serving them characters and personalities. So we are investing in it. Clearly, from people like yourself, not to the level just yet that everyone is pleased with.

However, what I can say to respectfully combat what you’re saying is we are bringing in lots of younger generations, not just the Misfits, by the way, which I appreciate, you probably don’t like that either. But that isn’t our only funnel to the youth.

Social media is. And there is a balance between the two. We’re trying to strike it. Don’t get it perfect every time. But the money is there, we’re investing in it. I don’t like mud-slinging at other people, but even if it’s not enough just yet, we’re doing more than anyone else.

Sure. Let me ask you this about subscriber base. If you get to where you want to go, will the prices come down? And what I mean by that is obviously DAZN has had to pivot a lot over the years. There was ambition to get Premier League rights early doors, then obviously there was the pandemic. Different things have come up. And obviously then the ‘no pay-per-view’ and then pay-per-view and Ultimate package, the pivots are understandable in a business context… But if you were to get a super amount of subscribers worldwide, is it possible that the cost would go down because the cost is being shared?

Well, the priority is to make the current price point value for money. That has to be the priority. And I’m not going to dress that up any other way.

And bringing in more promoters, bringing in more fights. We always do offers, discounts for new customers… There’s an offer at 20 per cent off this week.

So there are incentives for people to come in. Our priority for boxing, which is obviously my primary focus, is to, if you want a better phrase, kind of acquire the market and then just give people a volume of shows that makes it value for money. DAZN is a multi-sport platform, and we have ambitions beyond my part of the business to be the global home of sport for live and, of course, non-live events, coming back to a previous point.

You mentioned the Premier League there. It was very public that we had a shot there. It was very competitive.

But our aspiration still is to add additional rights. The example that you gave in terms of share or model, as you can imagine, it’s not necessarily that easy or that simple, and it’s not common practice in a lot of places. But again, to go back to what I was saying up there [at the press conference], the two things that are really important is, one, making it value for money, so delivering against the claims like the Ultimate Plan, and number two, making it accessible for people like your boy, for example, who may not just be ready yet to commit to a monthly subscription and 52 weeks a year-round for boxing. He may not want to watch lesser-known fighters. He may just want to watch Moses and then come back. But the hope is that after time, he’ll start to get the flavour and come back, and then we’ll make it value for money for him as well.

You did mention a key word there as well, quantity. I don’t think people are complaining about the quantity. There are issues at times with the quality. Last Saturday was an example, talking about the depth of the bill with Rolly and Teo. Who has the final say on what a DAZN bill looks like? Or is it one person?

No, no. No, listen. I mean, obviously we work with our promoters, right? And, you know, Frank, Eddie, Oscar, et cetera, et cetera. All of these guys, Bob and the guys at PBC, and matchmakers, right? And they’re very clear on our objective, which is to deliver a quality product.

The cadence at which we’re putting on fights at the moment, certainly from what you would call a top-tier event, like what we would consider a platinum tier or a pay-per-view, the scheduling at the moment means that a lot of our main events are so strong that actually a lot of the audience are coming in for the main event. We have an objective of bringing people in earlier, right? Which obviously, to your point, means that we need to stack cards out. To answer your question directly, we have a say.

It’s our product. We have people that know the sport very well, but I’m not going to sit here and go toe-to-toe with the promoters. We pay them money to do that for us.

We approve the shows. We want to get into a place where we’re actually, in 2027, this is a bit of a spoiler, but we want to get to a place where actually we’re working with the fans to have some back-and-forth dynamic about who should feature on cards to incentivise people to come in early. But we’re trying to strike a balance, as always, between absolute quality, which, as a boxing fan, I hope you can acknowledge that August this year we’ve seen some fantastic fights on our platform, but also quantity to deliver against different markets as well.

Obviously, Teofimo is now a DAZN fighter.

He is, yeah.

Are there plans to build the DAZN stable out with individual fighters?

Well, our plan is to grow the sport, fundamentally. It’s a really cliché answer, but however that presents itself, whether that’s to do directly with a fighter like in this instance, if they’re available to do so and the contract allows and the relationships that we have beyond that work, that gives us, with Teo, a lot more say in what he does and equally we can hear directly from him what he wants to do. He obviously had a tough fight last weekend, but came out victorious. The direction of travel for us is probably a level above that, which is to grow the sport.

So that is why we’ve always collaborated with other broadcasters. Well, we’ve always collaborated with promoters that previously have not been too complimentary of DAZN, we can be quite thick-skinned. This is business. But our macro-objective is to grow the sport, and to do that you need to diversify how you trade and how you commercially do deals.

And that is by bringing people all in one place, that is by signing off more fights than anyone has ever signed before, and sometimes that is by doing direct deals with fighters as well.

It’s very hard for you guys because you’ve obviously done the deal with TNT in America, RTE for Katie Taylor in Ireland as well. It’s obviously big-picture viewing, isn’t it? You try and obviously increase the funnel size, but it’s also very hard to not be precious with your product and the fights that you’ve made.

It is. Well, certainly for me as well, my job is to market the product amongst other things, but my job is to grow the people that watch the DAZN products.

But equally, the perfect question there after what I just said, our objective is to grow the sport, and there are some times where putting it to the nation in Ireland to show what a spectacle next Saturday will be in Croke Park, it’s an iconic event. I mean, I’m a huge, huge fan of Katie Taylor, love Katie Taylor. The reality is, is more people will be able to watch on RTÉ than they would on DAZN. It’s just a fact.

So we are not too arrogant or precious to put a barrier in the way of that, because I would quite quickly get asked questions by people like you, and you’re saying, ‘Well, up there you’re saying, we want to make it accessible, we want more people to watch the sport,’ and then you’re saying, ‘but you’ve got to pay, I don’t know, 20 quid or a pay-per-view for whatever, and it’s not going free-to-air.’ So we have to deliver against these claims. We, myself, my team, my superiors, have an integrity and believe that actually in my time working in boxing, which has been six years now, integrity is really important to people.

Volume, quality, quantity, all those things, pricing is important, but integrity, so saying that you’re going to do something and then not doing it, or saying you’re going to do something and admitting that maybe the timing wasn’t right, like pay-per-view is dead, you have to take your medicine sometimes and deliver against what you’re told to deliver against. But it is tough.

How would you appraise the threat level posed by Zuffa?

The threat level? Well, we don’t see it as a threat. We’re working with them in two weeks’ time for Garcia-Benn. There’s a lot of people over on that side that have worked with DAZN.

We’ve got very good working relationship. They’re doing their thing. They are entering the market very aggressively.

In terms of that, by the way, let me just give you something to go on. Obviously they’ve talked about wanting to own the sport, and I don’t know what that means. From what they’ve said, it doesn’t sound like they’re keen on sharing.

That’s their prerogative. You can’t own a sport. The UFC is a very different sport.

They’ve been extremely successful. These guys know what they’re doing. Serious operators.

They have some smart people behind the scenes. Genuinely, we wish them the very best of luck because I like competition. So far, touch wood, we’ve surpassed all competition, and we’ve been steadfast in our growth, and we continue to do that.

We believe that by working with people like this, we can achieve our objective and still be the major player. Without being too punchy, excuse the cliché, it’s impossible for them to own the sport with the deals and the relationships that we have with all the major promoters.

There will always be edge cases and exceptions, but I’m very confident and comfortable in our position.

Was it the Golden Boy relationship with Ryan Garcia that got you the UK rights for that show?

Well, of course, we’ve done lots of work with Ryan. Of course, Ryan is a Golden Boy fighter. We renewed our terms with them [GBP] this year, of which Ryan was a big part of that.

So similar with the way that AJ fought on Netflix against Jake Paul, we were involved. I had a seat at that table. Similarly, we had a seat at this table.

Let’s also not forget that Conor Benn has fought on DAZN, with the exception of his fight against Regis [Prograis]. He’s fought – and there are a few fights at the start of his career on Sky Sports – largely on DAZN. So we have an affiliation with both of these fighters.

We have a huge market share in the United Kingdom and an opportunity to exclusively show that fight to fight fans. It’s at 4am, so we’re expecting probably a bit more of a die-hard, committed audience or super fans of Ryan or Conor, whether they want them to win or lose, by the way. But yeah, look, that obviously opened the door, but we’re very immersed in the sport anyway.

This is going to sound somewhat negative, and I don’t mean it to be, but is the Netflix thing tough to swallow?

Tough to swallow?

These big ones that are going away, because obviously you’ve got the deals with Eddie and AJ, which you’d assume would obviously include their fights, and then obviously it goes and fights on another platform.

It’s not. In all honesty, it’s not tough to swallow. I wouldn’t use that language, no. It’s business.

You know, I’m going to give you my honest answer, which is we are running a business, we’re running a growth business with very aggressive growth objectives, holistically across the entire DAZN group, by the way, of which boxing is an extremely successful part of that business. That’s something really important to convey to people, there is this...

It’s the number one sport for DAZN, right?

Yeah. Well, listen, I mean, obviously in France we have domestic football, in Germany we are what you would call...

Like ESPN or Sky Sports?

…other broadcasters are available. But in the UK we’re a boxing product, and we’ve invested significantly in boxing. Likewise, in the US, it’s a global property. It’s the only platform that you can plug in and watch boxing in 200 territories, which is why these people want to work with us.

However, Netflix is an entertainment platform. Netflix is on a different level in terms of scale and household penetration. Coming back to my previous point, believe me when I tell you it helps elevate and grow the overall sport.

Anthony Joshua’s social media profile went up 35 per cent in the United States after his fight against Jake Paul, which for growth, objectively, is important, right? It’s important for everyone in this room that people still invest in boxing. People may not like the way that some people do it sometimes, but believe me, you have to ruffle some feathers and be aggressive to do these things.

So no, it isn’t hard to swallow. It’s a business decision. We make sure it’s right for us.

Believe me, we make sure it’s right for us. But again, coming back to my previous point, it’s not just lip service. It’s important that we are open-minded to, number one, what our fighters want to do… I’m not in the business of muzzling fighters to not achieve their dreams and what they want to do. AJ wanted that fight. So, yeah, it’s not... In all honesty, threat and hard to swallow, these words don’t really register in my mind.

But in terms of what you said earlier, obviously, I’m 47, so I’m not an old demographic.

No, no, you’re our bullseye audience, basically.

Am I actually?

Well, there or thereabouts, really, depending on what plate you’re spinning.

Because I suppose, obviously, when I look at the... I’ll go back to the short-form stuff. I get it. It’s not that I don’t get it at all. I can cherry-pick what I choose to watch or I have a guilty scroll anyway. It’s one of those things, when you get to that point in your life and you think, ‘I can’t doom-scroll all the time’ as well.

But do you feel like there’s still misconceptions DAZN or do you feel like with what you’re putting out and the product you’re putting out, now you’ve got all the promoters under one roof? Do you feel like you’ve broken the back of the slog?

Yeah, I do. I mean, you tell me if there’s misconceptions based on what we’re saying. I mean, always, as you know, people live and breathe on social media and unfortunately, people don’t take to social media to be positive.

And boxing social media, specifically.

And boxing in particular, right?

So, as you can imagine, I don’t spend too much time observing, certainly against the short form, the types of comments that we get from people.

We have broken the back of it. We have done everything so far that we set out to achieve.

We work with every major promoter in the world, even the ones that people are considering to be a threat for us. We are willing to operate with the biggest entertainment platforms in the world. DAZN is distributed in the UK on Sky.

You can cast your mind back five years ago, everyone was asking me, ‘you know, Sky-DAZN relationship,’ we’ve distributed on Sky, Virgin Media, Prime Video. I can’t be any clearer by our actions. Without sounding really arrogant, yes, we have broken the back of it. But things can change very quickly. We need to keep tight between the ears and keep open-minded, which I like to think we are.

(All photos courtesy of Queensberry Promotions)

Is Moses going to be the first guy that really reaches out on a regular basis for you beyond the hardcore niche boxing fanbase in this country? Because, and just for parallel, with Sky, obviously, when Frank took the guys to Sky, they were saying, ‘You can’t build a household name on satellite TV.’ And obviously, we saw what he did with Ricky Hatton.

Possibly. I mean, listen, in the US, Ryan Garcia, Canelo, have been very good for us. You know, we’ve had some good results for Anthony Joshua as well. Admittedly, how can I put this respectfully, he’s been at a point in his career, I don’t think anyone can criticise the two losses against Usyk. You know, obviously, he had a good win against Jermaine Franklin, good win against Robert Helenius, which happened instead of Dillian Whyte, which he would have won anyway, good win against Otto Wallin. Tough win against Kristian Prenga. But we’ve seen some good numbers there. But this is AJ, and, it’s no disrespect to AJ to say that he’s in, what I would say, Q4 of his career, right? So, yeah, maybe Moses is that guy.

But there are some people that do just hit slightly differently and cross over, and I’ll give you an example, someone like Giorgio Vizioli. Not like that scale, but people love him. People commit to people like Giorgio.

George Liddard last weekend did really well for us. So, yes, of course, when you spend as much money as we are on someone like Moses, nationally, on outdoor campaigns, big billboards, eight-page pull-outs in The Sun, that demonstrates to me that there is a market demand as well. Because these guys want to write about him, so why would we not jump on it as well?

And you’ve got Odel Kamara, who’s recently signed with Matchroom. There’s excitement around him now.

A lot of excitement. So, that’s the thing. I mean, Moses is only 21, so it feels crazy that we’re talking about him already being here. But have you watched our Spotlight series on the platform? You should watch that because it’s long form. And as a boxing fan, Tris, like, that is us investing in the next generation. It’s going into camp.

We’ve done it with Giorgio Vizioli, George Liddard. We did it with Moses. We’ve done it in the States with ‘Shu Shu’ Carrington. We’ve done it with Emiliano Vargas, et cetera.

We’ve done about 20, right? So, I am genuinely, as a boxing geek – but also a marketeer with big visions for where DAZN could go – really excited about the now but about the future. And that is because we’re investing in the talent. We spend a lot of time with our promoters, whilst I come back to what I said, it’s their job to make the fights.

We do spend a lot of time with them talking about who’s next, who do we get behind and what are the stories, what are the narratives. I’m not going to lie to you, the world is different now. Fighters are different in how they approach and promote themselves.

It’s very different now. Not everyone’s Mike Tyson. But there’s a story in there and our job is to find it and we’ll continue to try and do that as long as we don’t break the bank.

And in terms of the overall thing that you said about in terms of trying to grow the sport, obviously Shay Segev announced a big deal last night, yesterday, didn’t he?

(Author’s note: DAZN acquired EverPass Media, allowing several important businesses to become minority stakeholders in DAZN, including TKO, RedBird and 32 Equity, though it was, of course, the TKO link that made headlines.)

Yes.

And in terms of the overall work that you said about, trying to grow the sport, obviously Shay Segev announced a big deal this week, didn’t he?

(Author’s note: DAZN acquired EverPass Media, allowing several important businesses to become minority stakeholders in DAZN, including TKO, RedBird and 32 Equity, though it was, of course, the TKO link that made headlines.)

Yes.

Which is, it’s strange because obviously we’ve seen DAZN and TKO sharing headlines. I know it’s different from the TNT one but it just shows that your reach is trying to spread the growth.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, that deal, of course, it picked up headlines in the boxing world as people would, out of context, put it together. These are big businesses. We’re a big global business with big aspirations, but I suppose you have to articulate your point, we’re making big commercial moves to grow our product.

That is by collaborating. That deal in particular is part of a broader strategy in the United States specifically, which will continue as a real priority for us because it’s such an opportunity, there’s such a legacy in boxing that we’re starting to reignite. TNT, this commercial premises deal, are ways for us to continue to push that on forward until we get to a point where you turn on every TV in the house and it’s DAZN – but we’re not quite there yet.

We’ll get there.

When did you get into boxing, Alfie, what started your passion?

Nineties, like when I was five years old.

So were you looking at like Benn, Eubank, Collins, those guys?

No, I’m a little bit younger than that. I was Prince Naseem, Lennox Lewis, Lennox, I used to stay and watch Lennox and then, really, when I got to like 15, 16, I was always, always watching Ricky, all Ricky’s fights, staying up late, and then I’ve gone and watched Pernell Whitaker, my favourite fighter of all time, old-school fights. What hooked me? It was Naz, it was Lennox, and then as I got into an older man who would pay money to watch, which is the people I’m trying to get, it was like Ricky, and it was like Bellew, Haye, Joe Calzaghe, Froch, Groves.

But yeah, it was Prince Naseem and Lennox Lewis, just the heavyweight scene… I’d never seen anyone as confident as Prince Naseem. I’m so excited to meet him on Saturday [Hamed is part of the DAZN broadcast team]. I can’t wait to meet him. I don’t get starstruck, I’m very fortunate to meet a lot of people, and I’ve been in the same room as him a few times but I’m looking forward to getting introduced to him on Saturday. But editorially it makes so much sense for us. He doesn’t come out too much, so I’m excited to see what he’s got to say.

Top man, Alfie, thank you so much.

No, I appreciate it.

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A new magazine has just hit the market and it goes by the name of Mavericks. It’s a wonderful thick lifestyle magazine with interviews, fashion, and much more besides. There are two cover stars; Simon Pegg and Moses Itauma. I was asked to interview Moses Itauma for the publication and I was happy to do it. I liked what I found and, with the kind permission of those at Mavericks, they have allowed me to share the big Itauma feature here with subscribers. I hope you enjoy Itauma as perhaps you’ve not heard him before, and I hope this is the first of many interviews we do.

Check out Mavericks here.

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Mikaela Mayer has landed in England ahead of her contest in Birmingham this weekend with Chantelle Cameron. There is no animosity between the pair, but it is an important fight, with Mayer looking towards future bouts against the likes of Lauren Price and Claressa Shields. We spoke a couple of days before she flew to the UK.

Mikaela, thanks for making the time to do it before you come over.

Is Chantelle someone who’s been on your radar for a while?

Yeah, for sure. We’ve stayed cool throughout the years because we knew each other from the amateurs. So she was fighting at 140 and I was at 47 at this time. And we’ve talked and she said she was going to come up to ‘47.

And we always thought, ‘Okay, we’ll probably eventually have to get in the ring together. But we always thought that would be a great fight for the sport.’

But there’s no bad blood with you guys?

No. No, we’re cool.

I mean, like the first media day we had with MVP, we had to do a million face-offs. We had to fly to Orlando, do a million face-offs and a bunch of media stuff. We hung out the whole time.

I told them, I was like, ‘This can never happen with an opponent I have a rivalry with. Okay, you guys get like one or two face-offs max.’ So we must have done 100.

So it’s cool. You know, it is what it is. We’ve both had similar careers, we have kind of that same kind of mentality when it comes to fighting and wanting to get in there and fight the best, and we have similar come-forward styles, aggressive, high work-rate.

So I think it’s a perfect matchup.

I suppose, what you say about fighting the best, you guys have been rewarded for fighting the best, not just with a fight with each other, but you’re in a position now, Mikaela, where even if you take an L, it doesn’t really matter because you’re a well-known commodity in the sport, right? Like there’s value attached to you. It takes a while to get to that position though, doesn’t it? Because obviously so many people are written off after a loss, but when you get to that level, it doesn’t really matter if you win or lose a few, you’re still a big name.

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting that you say that because sometimes it’s like the first loss… to go undefeated, and then the first loss will really kind of matter. And the second loss, people are like, ‘Oh my God,’ and then you make your way back again. And yeah, I guess you’re kind of right.

I’m sort of solidified in this sport, and Cameron is as well, right? So I think we’re both well-respected and whoever does come out the loser in this fight will probably still get fights, but I don’t care. I don’t want another loss on my record. It is too hard emotionally, mentally to get through.

I believe I’m at the best I’ve ever been. And so I just don’t see that happening for me, but yeah. Yeah, no, I don’t want that again.

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By the way, we talked about you and Chantelle being okay with one another. You’ve had some prickly opponents the last couple of years, haven’t you? There’s been some back and forth. Do you prefer this when you’re getting along or do you like the fact that you’ve got to get nasty with a couple of people?

No, I just want it to be authentic, right? Like I don’t want to build a rivalry against someone where there is none really, you know? And so me and Chantelle, we don’t have that.

She’s not that type of personality. That personality comes out of me when I have someone I really do have something to say to, and with Chantelle, I respect her.

I respect the hustle and the willingness to fight the best. And so I think we don’t need the rivalry, fortunately, with our skill and how we’re both kind of at the top of our game. We’re both well respected in the sport.

We both have really exciting styles. I don’t think we need the rivalry. I think that our skill and the fight will just sell itself.

When you talk about how hard it’s been to get over a loss in the past, does that mean that there’s been times where you have thought, like, this is just… now it’s time to walk away, like you don’t want to do it again?

No, I mean, I’ve had moments where I’m like, ‘Oh, how many more camps can I do?’ But it has never been when I was sort of down and out or coming off a loss, like those are the moments, even though I was probably mentally not 100 per cent and feeling it. I just continued to show up because I knew I had to get back. But in those moments I never felt like maybe I should just hang it up.

No, that was not an option for me, to go out like that.

Was that in part just down to yourself and how you felt, or was it in part down to your environment? Because I know we’ve got a mutual friend in Trudy [Nevins] at DLX and I know that you guys are super close. Is it partly the fact that you surround yourself with the right people who are always picking you up and supporting you?

Yeah, I’ve said that. Anytime someone asks, ‘What’s your advice to the younger generation?’ it’s, one, get yourself a good team. Surround yourself with a team that you can trust and ride the waves with because a team will make or break you.

And I’ve always said that I’ve been very lucky. I’ve pretty much been with the same team my entire career, minus that one little hiccup with Sandy [Ryan]’s coach. But for the most part, I have to take credit and pat myself on the back for always making sure I’ve surrounded myself and attracted the good people into my life.

And when there wasn’t a good situation, I made moves to correct it and I adjusted. So I think that’s really important. And yeah, because when I was down and out, I just hear a lot of fighters where their team just kind of disappears and kind of checks out, right? Mine didn’t.

Coach Al [Mitchell] called me weekly to check on me and told me, ‘We’ll get back on top, everything will be okay.’ And same with my manager. They all felt the loss like I did.

They’ll say to you that it hurt them like they lost, too. So they definitely helped kind of navigate me back. They were the strength and I couldn’t even think about what was next.

So much of Chantelle’s reputation comes from the two fights she had with Katie Taylor. Obviously, I know there’s more to her than that, but she blew up after that first fight. Is it going to be a regret of yours that you and Katie never got to fight?

Oh, yeah, of course. I always thought we would fight and I always wanted that fight. And I think I just assumed it would always happen. And so I also knew that Katie was sort of in the driver’s seat when it came to who she wanted to fight.

And so it was like, ‘Oh, no, it’ll happen down the road, but it’ll happen when it’s time, when Katie seeks me out or something like that.’ I don’t know, but I think, ultimately, I probably stayed at 130 a little bit too long and missed that Katie train, because when I finally moved up to 135 and I won the interim belt, they told me I would be mandatory for the winner of Taylor-Serrano, except they had a trilogy. So when I heard that, I was like, ‘Cool.’

But then when I heard the rematches were happening [with Taylor and Serrano], I was like, ‘I’m not going to sit around and wait. I don’t have the time. I’m going to continue on.’

And that’s when I got the fight against [Natasha] Jonas.

Were you in the frame for this September 5 date? I saw your name bandied around a little bit.

Did anyone come to you for Katie in this Croke Park fight?

No, I was sitting out, crossing my fingers like everyone else. I would have loved to get that call. But, you know, that would have been pretty, pretty ballsy of Katie.

I feel like I’m in my prime. I’ve had some really great fights the last few fights and this is her last fight. So I wasn’t sure that she’d want to take on someone like me.

And again, I know that she sort of had the privilege to kind of decide who she wanted to fight. So I was crossing my fingers, but I was realistic about it.

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Glenn Catley sits back on his sofa.

He then leans forward, making some adjustments to the blinds so the sun doesn’t shine in his eyes, and eventually settles where feels natural and comfortable.

“There’s dog hair everywhere,” he smiles, switching his phone onto silent so we can talk.

He’s familiar with his surroundings because we are in his home. But the former WBC super-middleweight champion will not be calling it that for much longer.

Catley’s lived here for 26 years, on the fringes of Bristol, and he’s seen his family grow up and his two daughters and two sons move out.

That is a reason behind the downsize. But there is another cause for moving, too. The money just isn’t there any longer for the man who fought the likes of Richie Woodhall, Dingaan Thobela, Eric Lucas, Markus Beyer and Danilo Haussler.

Catley is a 54-year-old delivery driver who happens to have a green and gold belt in his home.

Those titles, handed out to those who win the coveted WBC straps, are the things dreams are made of and what fighters go through unthinkable pain and sacrifice for.

Catley went through the pain. He made the sacrifices. And he’s left with the belt.

“Do you know what,” Glenn sighs as he looks at the championship on his lap. “You’re going to find this quite – perhaps – offensive. It doesn’t really mean a great deal to me and that is quite sad really, but, yeah. My ultimate goal was to win titles, but also ultimately it was to make myself financially stable and sadly that just never happened.

“We’re selling this house. We’ve raised our kids in this house. They’ve had a great upbringing. We’ve been here for 26 years, but we’re selling because we’re just going to try and make life a bit easier for ourselves. We’re downsizing. It’s a new house, so it’s about me and Kelli now. The kids have grown up and moved on. It’s our time now and it’s just about trying to make life easy.”

The couple has been married 27 years and Catley has a kind manner.

He is generous with his time and his stories, but finds it difficult to get beyond the lamenting thoughts that things should have been different.

“It’s, well, sadly and very unfortunate, I never made much money out of boxing, you know, so I never… my intention when I started boxing was to win the titles but ultimately to make myself financially stable. Unfortunately, for reasons I won’t bore you with, that never happened. I had to go back to work and I’ve done all sorts in the last sort of… you know, my last fight was 2007, so we’re coming up for 20 years ago now.”

Catley came back for two fights in 2006-2007, won both and walked away. He was at his best when, in 1999, he travelled to Canada to upset Eric Lucas in an eliminator for the WBC title and, in his next fight, when he won the belt in Germany against Markus Beyer.

They were brilliant back-to-back away victories and a far cry from the life Catley has gone on to live.

“I’ve done lorry driving, I’ve done scaffolding, I’ve done security work, I’ve done shuttering and steel fixing, I’ve done all sorts,” he tells me. “I’ve done sales and I’m currently now a delivery driver at the moment. It’s not ideal but, you know, I’ve had to go back to work because sadly, like I say, not like the bigger names, like your Joe Calzaghes and your Carl Frochs, I never made any money really out of boxing, and I had to go back to work. It’s a small percentage though [who make enough to not work after boxing] and the thing is as well, the ones that do, they don’t always keep it anyway. I think one per cent of the boxing fraternity make enough money to retire on and, sadly, I wasn’t one of those.”

Glenn wears a baggy white T-shirt, pale blue shorts and his goatee is more grey than brown. He’s thicker-set than he was in his 168lbs pomp but has a hefty handshake and surely plenty of West Country strength in him.

Physically, he’s fit. He’s a strong conversationalist, but something’s amiss.

He has been diagnosed with early-onset dementia.

“I’ve been under examination for the best part of probably two years now,” he reveals.

He has been told he has chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a haunting diagnosis that often indicates things do not get better.

It was once known as punch-drunk syndrome, and then became dementia pugilistica. In the modern lexicon, it is CTE.

“I didn’t know what it was, not until being diagnosed,” Catley explains.

“When they told me, when I was out under observation, they told me the possibilities of having CTE and I did a bit of research on it.

“My memory was bad. My wife, she’d send me to the shop to get three things and I get to the shop 10 minutes later and I just can’t recall what she’s asked for, so I’ve had to phone her up – and this happened numerous times. Sometimes, I’ll be driving and I just go to a completely different location and some people say, ‘Glenn, I do that all the time.’ But when it happens regularly, you start thinking about it. I get confused. I do get confused in a conversation with a group of people and if we’re in a group of people, I get confused quite easily now.”

Catley is an inspirational figure. For years, he has been a busy and invigorating motivational speaker, but mood swings are, too, a symptom of too many blows to the head.

“Maybe that’s why I’ve started thinking about it. The negativity a little bit,” he admits.

“I was on sertaline for a little while. You’ve heard of sertaline? It’s like an antidepressant, if you like. A lot of, a lot of people are on sertaline. It’s quite a common thing apparently, but it has helped. It’s sort of lifted my mood up because not so long back, when we decided we had to sell this house, I was upset. I lost the job I was in. Life was pretty tough and then I was in a bit of a bad place. I found myself just crying every sort of half an hour. And I’d just cry on my own. I wouldn’t want to literally cry in front of people, but I’d always just end up finding myself crying. There was no reason for it.”

And while he shares what he’s going through with Kelli, the inevitability of what is to come is forever sobering.

“Kelli’s been going to all the appointments with me, to be honest. And I’m under Dr [Kanch] Sharma, who’s the brain specialist, if you like, for the British Board of Control. He’s been very helpful, very, very good and he explains everything to me very well, because I need a lot of explaining these days. But, yeah, CTE is… they can’t cure it, but they can slow things down. And obviously I want to get on medication as quick as possible because I don’t want to get worse.”

Glenn Catley turned pro in 1993. He defeated the 5-14-2 Rick North, from the fishing town of Grimsby, at the Whitchurch Sports Centre in Bristol. Glenn won 40-38 as part of a five-bout bill. That was in May, and by the end of the year he was 6-0 with three stoppage wins.

He opened his account in 1994 with his seventh victory, but lost fight number eight when he realised, albeit at late notice, that he wasn’t a light-middleweight any longer.

He toiled to come in at 154lbs to face Welsh veteran Carlo Colarusso, and Glenn was stopped in the fifth.

Asked whether he recalled his bell being rung in sparring or in many fights, Catley replied: “It happened too many times to be honest, for me to pick out any individual.”

“What about going into fights, like when you’d been hurt, dropped or concussed in sparring, did that happen?”

That prompts him to recall the Colarusso fight when “he was turning into a man” and outgrowing the weight.

He had been finding weight-making challenging and then took a call on a Sunday night asking whether he could make the weight for the Wednesday fight.

The gym scales the next day told him he had 12lbs to lose.

“And for the next two days, I put myself in the sauna, boiled myself right down, and I made the weight as if it was for the world title,” he recalls.

“I was completely and utterly drained, because I remember before the fight, my head is just thumping, I had a banging headache because I was just so dehydrated. And you cannot sensibly rehydrate yourself in that sort of small period of time, you know, six hours [in the era of same-day weigh-ins].

“Anyway, I remember driving home that night with my old amateur trainer, Alan Thompson. He actually drove me home that night from Wales.

“I was 21, 22, maybe 23 and when I was offered the fight, I felt like I had to take it because I didn’t want to let people down. I took it and that was my first defeat. It was a bit of a learning curve, a hard learning curve, nevertheless.”

Catley weighed almost 10lbs more for his next fight two months on and never boxed at 154lbs again.

**

“Looking back, obviously for me, I was happy that it was a chance I was willing to take to not be one of those people that sadly got it,” Catley said of his knowledge of fighters winding up damaged by the sport. “Unfortunately, that wasn’t the case. I have got it. And yeah, it’s quite shocking when you read some of the reports. Some of them have said you could be dead within six years because of it but I like to think I could still have a conversation and am still sort of compos mentis, as they say. I know that maybe 10 years, maybe 20… I don’t know how long. Concussion, it’s no surprise really, because concussion, and although I didn’t tell a lot of people about it, but concussion was a regular occurrence for 30 years. I boxed for the best part of 30 years as an amateur and as a pro, and it was a regular occurrence. I can remember driving up the M32 many a time after a training session, after a sparring session, and thinking, ‘I should not be doing this. The road’s just a blur.’ But it’s something you just become accustomed to, I guess.”

Nowadays, when he’s out on the roads making his deliveries, he’s occasionally stopped.

“‘You’re Glenn Catley?’” they ask.

“‘The world champion boxer.’”

“They are amazed to see what I was doing but when I told them I really didn’t make any money out of boxing they were quite shocked because everybody thinks – and they would naturally think because I’m a WBC world champion – I’m a millionaire but sadly, that wasn’t the case. I never made any decent money out of boxing.”

Catley reckoned his career-highest purse was £130,000 for the night he lost his title, in South Africa, to Dingaan Thobela. The Bristol man was stopped in the 12^th round and said his preparation for fight in Johannesburg was all wrong and that he’d left it far too late to acclimatise. He wilted with seven seconds left in the fight.

Then, Catley explains to me the way a fight purse is broken down, including 25 per cent to his manager before commissions are paid, sanctioning fees and paying his own tax.

“So, it soon boils down, so maybe I would have taken between, I don’t know, 60 and 70.

“It’s a great purse but when you’re only fighting once a year, once every sort of 14 months, it doesn’t really last long because when you’re dipping into that lump, nothing’s coming back in, it doesn’t last a great deal of time.”

But there were highs, not least winning the world title.

After twice boxing Joe Calzaghe in the amateurs – “I knew he was special” – there was a spell training with the brilliantly tough Irishman Steve Collins in Jersey, when Collins was working under Freddie Roach.

“Steve was incredibly tough. He had one gear, fifth. That was it,” Catley grins.

“He just did not take a step back. He just came forward, forward, forward. I learned so much working with Steve. I learned so much with Freddie Roach as well. It was three camps we did, 10 weeks at a time, I believe, and to this day, I suppose, it was the best 18 months of my entire career, professional and amateur.”

It was during that period that he and Kelli met on the island.

Glenn borrowed someone’s Mini Metro to take Kelli out and they went to a restaurant.

Three decades on and they have four children, Lacey, Baylee, Riley and Ellis.

Riley started to box but after 12 amateur fights and his father’s diagnosis, he stopped.

Glenn admits he often feels bitter, angry, frustrated and “disillusioned by the game.”

Does that mean he would dissuade young boxers from lacing up the gloves?

He hesitates to think about how best to answer.

“That’s a real difficult question,” he says.

“Boxing does so much good. It’s made me the person that I am. It’s a really tough question, you know, but I think it’s just making everyone aware. Nobody ever said to me, sat me down and said, ‘Right Glenn, if you box for 10 or 20 years, this could be the outcome.’

“I was never, ever told that. I was never given the explanation. I was never given the education.”

Catley thinks more needs to be done to inform coaches about the risks, in the amateurs and the pros. He talked about the Board of Control monitoring a focus group of fighters to learn about the dangers and to study the effects so boxers are aware that “this is the possibility of what you could end up with if you continue to get punched in the head.”

“Just give some realism to the boxers.”

Would he have listened if someone had told a young Glenn Catley what to do?

“If someone had sat down and showed me the brain scans of one boxer to another one and actually showed me, it might have ignited something in there, where you’ve got it in the back of your mind.”

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Kristian, thanks for making the time to speak to me. I appreciate it.

KP: No worries. How are you doing? Is everything good?

I’m good, thanks. I’m at the gym. Have you been to the gym since the fight?

Yeah, a bit. Not boxing, but just some workouts, running… not boxing. Next week.

Has it been nice being back in Albania?

Let me show you… (He turns his camera around and shows me the ocean.) It’s amazing, brother. You should come. And you’re welcome. It’s amazing. The water is amazing. It’s clean.

Have you been relaxing and chilling since the fight?

Yeah.

Have you watched the fight back?

To be honest, not everything. I don’t want to see it. I just want a little bit of chilling. But I’m gonna see it.

What are your memories of the fight? You had him down in 30 seconds and people thought it was all over…

To be honest, I was thinking I was going to finish the fight, but in the first round he was holding me and trying to hold me and hold me, and I thought I was going to finish him in the first round. My plan is, at the start, first, second or third, you know? And second round, I don’t know what happened.

Were you shocked that, after 30 seconds, you had Anthony Joshua on the floor?

To be honest, no. I knew I was going to drop him, but maybe not in 30 seconds. But I knew I was going to drop him.

What was the difference between the first and second rounds? Your approach seemed to change.

You know, sometimes when I go in the ring, I just focus on my trainer’s voice. I don’t hear nobody there. And sometimes when I go in the corner, he goes to me, just jab and double jab and just control the breathing. He doesn’t want me to go [all out]. I don’t know, maybe. I don’t know. I don’t talk to my trainer actually after the fight. I say I want to talk later. And maybe he wants to save because it’s 12 rounds, right? And he says control the breathing, move around, double jab, but I love to go. Maybe it’s better just to go. I can stop him. Maybe second round I finish the fight. And I go the wrong way, I go onto his right hand. It’s not my style to go back. My style is boxing to go forward. Pressure. But God’s plan is for him to win and I am blessed, and God bless him because I’m happy with what God brings to me.

But do you have regret that you didn’t jump on him in the second round?

A lot. A lot. I know if I go, maybe I finish the fight. But, whatever.

They played the video later of your corner and what your coach told you between rounds about staying calm. Now people have seen the instructions, and I don’t think many agreed with the instructions.

I don’t know what to say to this. Maybe he was being professional and trying to fight 12 rounds, but I think it’s better for me to go, to go only. Because I dropped him [Joshua] not two times, I dropped him three times because one time he went into the ropes and he [the referee] doesn’t count. And why go back in the second round and control the fight? Go early and stop the fight. Why am I going to calm down when I had him in my hands?

Obviously, you were upset on the night. Since the fight, people thought you had the fight to win and they thought that maybe you took money or took a bribe to change your tactics before the second round.

First thing, I’m not for sale. That’s the first thing. I promise you.

Second thing, why am I gonna sell the fight? If I win, I’m gonna make more money than selling the fight.

When you hurt Joshua, were you thinking, ‘I’m going to get the Fury fight at Wembley, I can fight Usyk… I get the massive title fights’? Are you thinking that in the excitement of it all?

No, because I don’t like to make plans. It’s never been my plan to fight Anthony Joshua. I loved to fight him. I said to my trainers and everybody, I hope I’m gonna fight Joshua. And God brings it to me, but I don’t like to make a plan. My plans I love to make are only God’s.

We know what happened in the second round, but what was Joshua’s power like? Was it unlike anything you’d felt before?

Of course, it’s power because it’s the first time I got knocked down in my career, in my life. I’ve never been knocked down in sparring. It’s the first time. I think he has the power.

People think that, with the performance you put up now, Joshua looks like an old fighter, and that the fight with Tyson Fury is now not one between two of the best heavyweights in the world. Do you still think Joshua is one of the best?

It’s not true. Joshua is a great fighter. He has experience. He has power and I know he went through a lot in his life – as we all know. But it’s not an easy fight for Tyson Fury. I promise you.

Is it too early for you, Kristian, to say what you want to do next?

I’m waiting with my manager, Keith Sullivan, to say for me. I am ready to go. I am just waiting for him. I don’t have a promoter right now. I don’t sign with anybody. Maybe I will go with Matchroom or whatever, who’s good, who my manager says, whatever.

Your stock has risen in defeat. You’re more valuable now than you were before, and that is not always the case when you lose a fight.

Yes, because before the fight everyone said, ‘Who’s this guy?’ and ‘Why’s he fighting Joshua?’ ‘He fights nobody. He’s stopped everybody in the first or second round.’ But now what are they gonna say? I dropped Joshua in the first round, too. Joshua is a two-time world champion, Olympic champion. He’s never got dropped in the first round like that. I know I have the power.

Did you feel there was no pressure on you because people wrote you off?

I didn’t have the pressure.

Does that mean it was easier for you, without that pressure?

Yes.

Did I hear you right? Did you say you’d not spoken to your trainer since the fight?

No, I spoke to him, but not about the fight. I said, ‘No details.’ He’s happy, you know. My manager is happy. Everybody in Albania is happy. I am not happy. I go for the win, I didn’t go to be an opponent.

Do you take some happiness from the fact that you put yourself on the map?

Yeah, I’m happy because I showed it to people in boxing who I am. Because they say I stopped maybe not good boxers, they say I fought not good fighters because I stopped them in the first or second round because I stopped them all in a few rounds. And now, they say nothing.

When will you be able to watch the fight back?

To be honest, I just want to try to get over it a little bit.

How long will you stay in Albania?

I’d love to stay [forever], but I need to go back and train, maybe next week. Maybe two more weeks. I cannot fight for three months because I’m suspended and I’m going to start training.

Do you believe now, with the experience that you have, that you can become world heavyweight champion?

I believe. I believe in myself.

Do you believe in yourself more now after what you did to Joshua?

To be honest, yes, because it was the first time in a big arena. I think there’s no pressure, but the world was watching, many people, big arena, it’s the first time, but I think the second time is easier and third time is more easier.

I see you’re wearing a Whoop band. Are you getting sleep again now?

Last night? No, last night I had all my cousins here, 50 people (laughs). I go for dinner, stayed to 2am, wake up at 7.30am.

So a red recovery?

Yes, red recovery!!

Well, I hope you enjoyed it! Thanks for speaking to me. I appreciate it.

I appreciate you, too, brother. Thank you so much.

(All photos by Mark Robinson/Matchroom Boxing)

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Earlier today, speaking from a car via Zoom, Moses Itauma hosted a Q and A with the UK media. This is what Itauma, who fights Filip Hrgovic on August 29 for the vacant IBF heavywieght title, live on DAZN, had to say.

Moses, I’ll fire straight in. So I just wanted to check the overriding feeling when you heard that this would be for the world title. Obviously, you’re already preparing for the biggest fight of your career, biggest test of your career, and now the world title is attached to it. Was it excitement? Was it joy? Was it, oh, OK, like, how did you feel when you first heard that news confirmed?

To be honest, for me, like, I didn’t really have no reaction. I was like, if I’m fighting Hrgovic and I’ve got the opportunity for it to be a world title, I said, ‘Yeah, chuck the world title on the line.’ I didn’t really have no feeling. I was taking Hrgovic seriously, and now that the fight’s for a world title, I’m still taking him seriously.

Good point.

And Frank Warren, yesterday, when we spoke to him, he kind of turned it round on us and said, who do we all think is the number one hottest property in boxing? And he said, look, it’s obviously Moses. He’s the number one, if you were going to make that argument. Now, as boxers in history would agree and would say, that’s exactly what I am.

Would you, is that how you consider yourself? Would you agree with Frank? Is that, would you make that statement yourself?

What, that I’m a hot property?

That you’re the number one hottest property in world boxing?

Oh, man. I appreciate the compliment from Frank Warren.

Yeah, but do you agree?

Do I agree?

You’re allowed to say yes. Many people would. Many, many, many people would agree.

You know what it is? I just think I’ve developed into the person, the character and the fighter I want to be, as I feel like a lot of people that are up there have. And I feel like it’s hard to ignore, like, Jaron Ennis, Shakur Stevenson. Like, they’re all still kind of young.

Like, so I wouldn’t be able to say that I outshine them, if that makes sense.

Moses, if you’re the top young heavyweight at the moment, which I think and others think you probably are, you’re coming into this little gap left by Usyk and one of you is going to come through as the contender to become the next undisputed champion, we think. If you’re the top contender, who do you think is your biggest rival in that group of young fighters?

It’ll have to be Agit Kabayel, innit? He’s kind of, he’s beat everybody that’s there. He’s pretty much beat everybody that’s rising right now. So I’d probably say he will probably be the biggest rival.

And Hrgovic, not the young buck, but what’s your assessment of him? Only one defeat. Your thoughts on him? How much do you rate him?

Of course, he’s a very good fighter. He’s only had one defeat and he only lost because of a cut, you know what I mean? So yeah, he’s solid.

I’m in for a long night, but I’ll be all right.

Oh, I think you’ll be all right. Thank you and good luck, young man.

Hi Moses, thank you so much for your time. If you do beat Hrgovic, you’ll become the second youngest world heavyweight champion ever. Mike Tyson was younger.

Would you have ever seen Tyson’s fight against Trevor Berbick when he became the youngest world heavyweight champion with one of the most devastating finishes that has been seen in heavyweight boxing?

Yeah, I did watch, of course. But Tyson’s had his career. I’m still making my career, you know what I mean? Of course, I tried to set out a goal to become the youngest heavyweight world champion.

I didn’t achieve it, but I landed a Dillian Whyte fight, you know? So it’s like step by step. What do they say? You shoot for the stars, you land at the moon or something along the lines of that.

Tyson said after that fight a lot of things, but mainly that he was, these punches were coming with bad intentions.

Do you want to make a similar statement and have that kind of force that will open up your win to a wider audience than just the boxing hardcore?

To be honest, I just had an interview with the BBC and they said, they asked me, what’s the one thing that people don’t know about Moses Itauma? And I said, I don’t actually want to be under the bright lights, but with the way I’m going, it looks like I ain’t got no choice. So, I don’t know.

I know you don’t like the media, but is it getting slightly easier?

I think I’m learning how to deal with the media. I think I just, I think when I first started professionally, the problem is just like, you’re always talking about what you’re going to do and it’s like you haven’t yet proven it.

Moses, you mentioned Filip Hrgovic and he’s capable of giving you a long night in there. I think we all saw that moment in your last fight where you kind of said to Ben [Davison], ‘Oh, I might have come out a little bit too fast here.’ I think you might have been feeling the pace a little bit.

Do you feel like that’s kind of giving you the confidence for this one to know that you can overcome those difficult moments in fights?

No, not really. I wasn’t feeling the pace that Jermaine Franklin was setting. I’ve set a pace too high for Jermaine Franklin.

It wasn’t something that Jermaine Franklin was setting about me. I was saying earlier today, I feel like I took the necessary steps to get me to this position. I haven’t gone from Mariusz Wach straight to Filip Hrgovic.

I think I might have found out or learned a couple of things where I might have not been ready for. Whereas I feel like as of right now, I think I’m in a good space.

You mentioned, obviously, sort of being more familiar with media commitments now. But I feel like with this camp, it seems like you’ve been doing a lot of media. Has that presented more of a challenge, maybe in terms of your training, that you’ve not encountered before?

Yeah, to be honest, I’ve said no to a lot of things.

So if you’re saying I’m doing a lot, I’m sure I can say no to a few more.

Just finally from me, I’ve seen you’ve been sparring that German heavyweight, the Olympic bronze medallist. I was just wondering, could you see him sort of being an opponent down the line for you? And how have those rounds gone?

I don’t think I see him as an opponent at the minute.

I guess not because he’s so early in his career. And obviously, I’m about to fight for a world title. But I do wish him all the best.

He’s very sharp, very strong. I’ve been sparring him for years now. I remember when I was 17, I used to drive to where he lives in Cologne. I used to drive to him to spar him at his home gym. And I used to spend just a weekend sparring him and all of his clubmates, if you get what I mean. So yeah, he’s a good friend of mine.

I wish him all the best.

Awesome, thanks. Thanks, Moses.

Hi, Moses. Thank you for your time. I was just reading that the first book that probably got you into reading was Hustle Harder, Hustle Smarter by 50 Cent.

Why that book?

It was the first book I completed. But there were like four or five books where I’ve picked up and I’ve read. And like, I read that first 20 pages. I’m like, I can’t do this reading stuff. And I just put the book down.

But it was just more... I just found that I didn’t find books that I clicked with. And that 50 Cent book, Hustle Harder, Hustle Smarter, was the first one I clicked with. Well, what got me into that book? I don’t know.

I think I remember coming across it on YouTube and I saw the audiobook and I just started playing the audiobook. And then I just ended up buying the book and started reading it.

If there was one thing you took from it, what was it?

The one thing that I can take from the 50 Cent book would probably be... There’s one chapter that says, ‘evolve or die’. And it’s basically talking about you have to evolve with the times. Or it might be you never get too close to a drowning person. You try to help them from a distance. Because if you get too close to a drowning person, then he’ll pull you down with you. You try to help from a distance, but if they get too close and they start hanging on to you, otherwise, you’ll get pulled under yourself. Fair enough.

And do you think you have to be a hustler in boxing?

Oh yeah, 100%. 100%.

How have you hustled in boxing?

I don’t know how to answer that question.

Fair enough. Thank you for your time.

All right, thank you.

Thanks for doing this. It’s always good to chat.

Hey, speaking to Frank yesterday, he was obviously talking about you being hot property and that kind of stuff. What is it about you that’s captured the imagination of the fans?

I don’t know. I don’t know because, like, I just, I try to be authentic when I’m on camera.

And then obviously in my boxing, I guess it seems like I’m putting on entertaining fights. So I feel like that’s got a part to play in it. I wouldn’t really know.

I guess I’m not braggadocious. I’m not swaggerdocious. I don’t do anything extraordinary outside the ring.

I don’t know. In my mind, I feel like it might be just because I come across as myself. I don’t try to be anyone else.

And obviously the highlight reel helps, right? The highlight reel knockouts. And in that way, that’s somehow similar to how they did build Mike Tyson back in the day, right?

They just put these highlight reels together of him just icing people.

But I think obviously Mike Tyson was obviously well known for the stuff that he used to say outside the ring as well, so.

Yeah, that’s true. And obviously on the 29th, you’re gonna walk out in front of about 20,000 people.

There is talk, providing you come through this, of stadium fights next year. Like the feeling you get walking in front of 20,000 fans and then maybe 70,000, 80,000 fans. Is that something that you really enjoy?

I haven’t really thought about that because if I don’t get past Hrgovic, there ain’t gonna be no stadium fights or nothing.

But say for the Hrgovic fight, when you do walk out from behind the curtain there and you’ve got all those fans there, do you enjoy that? Is that when the adrenaline kicks in?

Do you know what? I remember the Jermaine Franklin fight.

Yeah, I remember. When everybody was going, ‘Oh, Moses Itauma…’ I just wanna sit there and just listen to it and just appreciate it.

But it’s hard because it’s like, I’m in the ring fighting, you get what I mean? So it’s like, you try to appreciate, you try to take it in, but at the same time, you don’t wanna be starstruck that obviously you get caught out.

Yeah, top man. All right, thanks, Moses.

Declan and Tris have already said about Frank calling you one of the hottest properties in boxing at the moment.

Teddy Atlas went a little bit further when he compared you to Mike Tyson. He said you’d had more attributes than what Mike had at the same age. Really? How do comparisons like that make you feel? Do you just take it all on board or?

Teddy Atlas said that, yeah?

Yeah, he said at a similar age, he said Tyson was just more one-paced, just destructive. He said you use a lot more. But how do those comparisons make you feel?

To be honest, I’m pretty sure Teddy Atlas and Mike, I feel, Teddy Atlas put a gun to Mike Tyson’s head before, no? I think he just doesn’t like Mike Tyson.

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Today, Frank Warren hosted a media roundtable for a handful of journalists. Here is what the Hall of Fame promoter had to say

Frank, can I just dive in? Thanks for your time. I just wanted to, obviously, great news for everyone involved with this fight being sanctioned by the IBF.

Now, we obviously were told or they said that they wanted Frank Sanchez to box Moses for it. I just wondered, from your point of view, what was the process to get to where we are now, where this fight in London is going to be for that belt?

Well, the timings are we’d already made the fight. It’s a great fight, always going to be a tough fight and a big test for Moses.

And the fact that Usyk vacated the belts and this opportunity, we felt there was a big opportunity there for him to, or for us to secure the crack at the title for him and upgrade the fight for the vacant belt, that’s what we did – so a deal was done with Sanchez.

And here we are. We’ve got, for Moses, the opportunity to become the second youngest ever world heavyweight champion after Mike Tyson. And the second, certainly since the War, the second youngest fighter to win a world title after Naseem Hamed.

So, you know, it ticks all the boxes.

Was it a case of, or can you tell us if it’s a case of step aside money, quote unquote, step aside money for Frank Sanchez? Was it as simple as that?

Well, you know, Frank Sanchez and his manager, they certainly are not benevolent people.

Since you were already arranged for this particular opponent, it’s clear that you think he’s ready for this, even though the world title is added to it. It’s more exciting, but he’s as ready for this fight as he’ll ever be.

Well, I hope so.

You know, he’s only had 14 fights, so this is a massive step up for him. You know, he’s in with a guy, I mean, you’ve all seen him fight – Hrgovic. He’s got a stellar amateur record, and as a pro, he’s only lost one fight.

He’s got 15 KOs, he can punch, and he fancies it, Hrgovic. You know, he really does think that he’s got the skills to beat Moses. He thinks he’s got the experience, and we’re going to find out.

You know, Moses, as a pro, and you look at the amount of rounds he’s got under his belt, they’re not a lot of rounds, but we believe in him, and I do think this is a fight that I hope he comes through and will show the world what a talent he is.

One of his talents, if you like, Hrgovic, is that he’s proved that he can take very big punches in a couple of his fights against the Chinese fighter [Zhilei Zhang] and those guys. It makes it a more fascinating test, in a way, doesn’t it?

Well, it does, and also think of the shots he [Hrgovic] took from Daniel Dubois, and you see what Dubois did with AJ.

You know, he is a strong guy. He’s a very, very strong guy, and he punches hard himself. Again, now look at the fight he had with Daniel in Saudi, and in that fight, the first sort of four rounds, he was catching him with big shots and was boxing extremely well.

Look, you know, he [Moses] is a young man. He’s undefeated as an amateur, you know, won the European Championships, knocking everybody out in the first round, won the World Championships, the ones he didn’t knock out, he put on the floor. You know, he’s a winning fighter.

He’s got a winning mentality, and one thing that I find about him is that he’s very, very mature mentally, and he really fancies this job. We’ve had a lot of discussions about it, and he’s, you know, he’s not somebody who just goes into a fight. He studies his opponents and looks for what he feels, you know, what their weaknesses may be and how he can exploit them, and that’s what I like about him, and I think that this is going to be a, it will be a tough fight, and we’re going to see what he’s all about.

You know, I’ve got it right, because obviously, the end of it all, it’s me who’s sort of pushed this and made the decision, so fingers crossed that that is the case, but I do believe in him, and I do think he’s a very precocious talent, and I do think he’s capable, but I have utmost respect as well for Filip.

Thanks, Frank.

Frank, good to see you, thanks for your time. We know Moses is kind of a low-key, understated sort of guy, but how was he when he heard that this is for a world title? Did you sense a deep excitement in him this time?

Yeah, when he signed with us as an amateur he said he wanted to be the youngest ever world champion. That was his ambition, and I think that like all young fighters, when you’re young, you all want to do the best, be the best, and obviously, once he turned pro, you see what a steady road and how difficult that can be, but when I told him this happened, he was over the moon. It was like he’d resigned himself to… he wasn’t going to be the youngest champion because he’d passed the age that Mike Tyson had won the title at, but he was so thrilled. I mean, unbelievably thrilled. For him, this was the cherry on the cake. He wanted to fight, he wanted to fight Hrgovic, and having the IBF title on the line has made it even more spicy, and more of a challenge.

And similarly with Hrgovic, how was he when he heard, because he clearly does fancy the fight, did you again sense perhaps a deeper intensity in him now that he knows it could end up with him being a world champion?

Well, I did promise him he’d get a shot at the world title, and it’s happened. It wasn’t something that we planned at the time we first made the fight, but it’s happened, and he’s over the moon as well. I mean, look, for these guys, we’re all sick vacating the belts, choosing not to defend them.

This has made it even more exciting times, so these guys know what’s on the line. They know that whoever gets this belt, they’ve got currency, and they are considered to be a world champion, but they’ve also got the currency of what it brings with them, the money that they can earn out of being the world champion. So it’s going to spur them on even more, and for Hrgovic, that’s what he’s all about.

He wants this world title.

Cheers for your time. I suppose you could say there’s a couple of similarities between when Anthony Joshua first won the world title, same arena, same belt, not too dissimilar in terms of records, obviously not age, but that really kind of started AJ’s ascent to sort of superstardom here.

I suppose you’ll be thinking this will be the start of Moses.

Well, I hope it will be, although I do think that Hrgovic is a much better fighter than Charles Martin, although he had the belt, but he also got the belt by default when Tyson vacated when he had his problems. But yeah, it’s part of his journey.

This is the journey.

So you guys will have the confidence that he’ll go on to even surpass what Joshua and the others did?

Look, that’s what we do as promoters, and we invest in fighters that we believe in, and we’ve been investing in him since he was 16. It’s not something overnight, he’s been with us now for, he’s coming up to his sixth year since he signed to be with us.

And this has all been part of the plan. And it’s a tough fight. I hope he wins it, I believe he can win it.

If he doesn’t, it’s part of his education. But I do believe he can win it. But I don’t see this as being any easy job by any means.

And as the fight goes on, we’ll see if the fight, if that’s if the fight does go on. What I’ve seen of Moses up to as yet, and the fight and the caliber of the fighters he’s beaten, I know who the fighters are. Some obviously may have not been the fighters they were a couple of years ago.

Having said that, that’s the same for all fighters coming through. But it’s how you win, how you go about your business. And the way he’s been fighting and the way he goes about his craft and his and applies his trade is far in front than anybody I can think of at his age.

Yeah. And I read an interview you did with the BBC where you said, already, if things go well, and he wins the belt, there’s unifications potentially at Wembley. It’s very rare that a fighter will know the next two fights, if he wins this.

Do you think maybe if he wins this, then Sanchez, he could look at those stadium fights after that?

Yeah, look, he’s got to win it first. If he wins it, one thing’s for sure, the British heavyweight scene is alight. You’ve got a big fight coming up with the two senior heavyweights in Tyson and AJ.

Everybody is obviously waiting for that to happen in November and to be announced. And in the meantime, you’ve got all these guys all jockeying around, Moses, Daniel Dubois, who holds a belt, who is a champion, Fabio Wardley, who’s going to challenge him in October, plus the others that are all there. The heavyweight scene is just amazing.

When I think of when I took my license out with the Board of Control 46 years ago, I look at this and it is amazing because there were no Brits, no Brits had won the world heavyweight title at that stage.

Okay, finally for me, in an ideal world, but maybe not a realistic world, as a promoter, would you dream of maybe Itauma fighting the Joshua-Fury winner in a sort of an unconfirmed passing of the British torch?

I think all of those fights are available. All of those fights are there to be done if the fighters want to do them. And as I say, exciting times, what a great fight that if Moses comes through, Daniel Dubois is down the road, two massive punchers, what a fight that would be.

That’s a stadium filler all day long.

Frank, thanks for giving us some of your time. Obviously, you’ve got this stronghold on the division, which has been well publicised.

How soon do you think it could be before we see a new undisputed champion crowned?

I think it will happen within the next 18 months, two years. You know, obviously they’ve got the belts have got to be fought for, vacant belts, whatever it is, they’ll all be fought for. We’ve got to get the governing bodies together to agree a unification programme.

And that means mandatories being pushed back and so forth. So there’s a lot of things to be done. But we’re in a bit, I mean, one thing no one can accuse us of is getting these fights on.

We’re making this division move. I don’t think the heavyweight division’s had so many title fights on like this in succession for many, many, many years. And we’re making it happen.

And I do believe that we will when our goal and ultimately where we want to be is to see who’s the best out of these bunch of fighters, see who’s going to be the best and hold the four belts and go and move on from there.

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Dan Rafael and I go back many years. We have also had similar career paths in that we qualified as journalists and then cut our teeth on local newspapers away from the back pages as we waited for openings in the sport we were both most-passionate about.

Dan is the best-known boxing journalist in the world. He was formerly with USA Today, then moved to ESPN, and now his home is here, on Substack.

Tris Dixon: What a strange weekend in boxing. I’m not sure I’ve seen anything like it. Tyson Fury in Thailand, Anthony Joshua in Saudi Arabia. Usually when we have these sort of semi-finals, it’s an infomercial to set up something you can’t wait for. It didn’t really work, did it?

Dan Rafael: I mean, obviously it’s still a big fight because people want to see those two great names against each other in a fight that a lot of us have waited a long, long time for.

But I don’t think that these two appearances helped either one of them. I mean, that’s just being real about it. Fury kind of lumbered his way through a sparring session for seven rounds and then Mariusz Wach retired or his corner stopped the fight.

I didn’t feel like he was taking punishment where he had to stop the fight, but okay. I mean, I guess it is what it is. And not only that, but fighting in an unusual location like Thailand, not even being the main event of that card, I believe he was the second bout of the show and the rest of the show were local Thailand club fights, no broadcast. I know that Tyson had said that they were recording the bout for use on their reality series on Netflix although they’re certainly not going to show all seven rounds of the fight.

That was kind of weird. So I saw it. I’m sure like, if you’re a lunatic boxing person like myself, I went and found somebody that posted the full fight on their YouTube channel.

And then fast forward 24 hours later to Anthony Joshua. He gets dropped twice and looks like he’s about to get knocked out when the wind blows. And to his credit he came back and he got a knockout against a fighter that, in my opinion, was just abominable matchmaking.

Why would you take a fighter like Anthony Joshua, known to have some chin problems, coming off of the layoff, the mental anguish of what occurred with his friends and put them in that kind of fight with a guy who has no other possible way to win unless he can land the big bomb? And he did exactly that and came within a whisker of winning. And so it was made to me very, very clear that although Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua had been great heavyweights and are the dominant forces of this era, other than Usyk, both probably going to be Hall of Famers someday, they’re at the end and it showed every bit of that this past weekend.

Did you go from one to the other though, after Fury, did you think, ‘Oh, he doesn’t look good, this is Joshua’s now,’ and then after Joshua’s, go back to Fury and think, ‘Oh no, I think Fury wins that one’?

I mean, I’ve always sort of gone back and forth about it. I feel like that the more talented fighter, just skill for skill is probably Fury, but punch for punch, Joshua was the bigger puncher.

I know that Anthony has been knocked out in the past. Fury has never been stopped, but both guys have been on the floor. And many times. I went and I counted it up. I don’t know if maybe I’m off by one or two, but by my count, Anthony Joshua has been on the floor 11 times in his career and Tyson Fury has been on the floor seven times in his career and with any other referee in the history of boxing should have a knockout loss on his record in the first fight against Deontay Wilder [when Jack Reiss allowed Fury to continue].

So they’re both extremely vulnerable. And so if anybody can land a big shot, when they finally fight each other, that could be the big difference.

I’m not trying to sell it, but do you feel like now they’re as evenly matched as they’ve ever been? Because there was a big period of time when Fury was going through maybe the Wilder fights and Joshua was getting over the Andy Ruiz defeat where I would have lent strongly towards Fury.

Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, I still probably make Fury the slight favourite, but it’s kind of a pick ‘em fight.

They both have the power to knock the other guy out. Both guys could get knocked out. It’s a fight that we should have seen several years ago.

Anthony Joshua almost cost himself another huge fight that people wanted to see. And it was not Anthony Joshua’s fault the previous time, but not that long ago, they had a signed contract for Deontay Wilder after a long, long time with them having gone all those years without fighting each other. And finally they signed a contract.

They’re on the same card. Anthony Joshua gets a victory against Otto Wallin. And then in the previous fight on that card, it was Deontay Wilder taking a loss and ruining that fight.

He [Joshua] was almost within a whisker of losing two of the big ones in terms of getting them made. I hate tune-up fights.

I understood why Joshua took one, given what happened in December. I didn’t think that Fury necessarily needed one when he just fought in April. Tune-up fights are horrible.

Well, there are some that spring to mind that would have been there in your tenure with Baldomir beating Judah and Felix Sturm pushing Oscar De la Hoya to that very controversial one.

I remember, I wasn’t covering boxing at the time, but I spoke about this exact one when I did my own podcast with my partner TJ on Sunday night, I was thinking when Joshua was getting off the floor for the first knockdown, the first thing that came to my mind was Tommy Morrison with a signed contract for $8 million to fight Lennox Lewis and he decides to dick around and take a so-called hometown warmup fight in a defence of the WBO title against the unknown and completely obscure Michael Bent.

And like two minutes later is knocked out in the first round. And there goes the Lennox Lewis fight and the title shot against the WBC champion.

So as things stand, is Fury-Joshua a superfight?

It is for Britain. It is for boxing fans. It drives me crazy that there’s a movement for those who are financing it to insist that it takes place in the United States. As an American, I’m almost embarrassed that we’re trying to take this fight from you guys, because this fight belongs at Wembley Stadium or at the very least in the indoor stadium in Cardiff that can hold like what, 80-85,000 people. Somewhere in the United Kingdom.

We don’t really want this fight. We don’t need this fight for whatever reason. The powers that be, I think mainly Netflix, wants to fight here for our time zone.

I can’t tell you how many people that I’ve heard from on my social media, fans as well as people in the business who I’ve talked to or texting me or whatever, think it’s absolute lunacy for anybody to insist that this mega British fight between two huge names takes place in America. I mean, it will sell tickets here.

I guess if they put it at the MGM Grand or the T-Mobile Arena or Madison Square Garden, they’ll sell the tickets. And probably a lot of it will be the Brits that come over to buy those tickets the way they did when Anthony Joshua fought here against Andy Ruiz the first fight, and many Brits came out when Tyson Fury was fighting all three bouts against Deontay Wilder. But this is not an American fight.

We don’t need this.

Do you feel like it’s lost some of its lustre for that casual American audience now?

I don’t think there ever was an audience from the casual American.

Wow. Okay.

I mean, you follow boxing, you know, Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury, and you’re interested to see these two big names and long-time stalwarts of the top of the heavyweight division finally fight after a long time of not having done it. I view this fight as sort of like, however you want to date the era, but this is like the last man standing of this era of what I feel is a very good heavyweight era… Joshua Wilder, Fury, Usyk, and a few others that are more on the periphery.

I’ve said this before, the 1990s had that great era led by Lennox Lewis and ‘Iron’ Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe and the second career of George Foreman and plenty of others, Tommy Morrison and Razor Ruddick and Ray Mercer. And they all kind of mostly fought each other through the years and that petered out.

And when Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson finally fought, although not in the nineties, briefly into the 2000s, that was the last fight. And when that fight was over, it sort of closed the era. We’re at that point with this era, when Fury and Joshua will fight each other and perhaps around the same timeframe, Usyk and Wilder fight each other, that’ll close the book, on this particular era, which has been a very good one.

That version of Joshua that we saw this weekend, and I don’t want to ignore the personal strife he’s had to overcome to get to where he’s got to, but if you’re in the ring, you’ve got to be judged by how you are in the ring, I don’t think that version of Joshua beats Kabayel, Dubois, Itauma, maybe even Wardley and even maybe possibly Rico Verhoeven after what we saw Rico do against Usyk. I think there’s five to 10 fighters, maybe Hrgovic as well, that could beat Joshua. And if Fury’s legs are gone as badly as people are suggesting, I think it could be the same for them. I’m not sure these are two top five heavyweights anymore.

They’re probably there just on name, I guess, at this moment in time. I mean, Dubois already beat Anthony Joshua and did so in spectacular fashion, but I can’t disagree with you. Sometimes when people do ratings and things like that, you kind of give the more known commodity the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

I mean, Joshua, you look at the end of the day, he did win by spectacular knockout against Prenga.

Do you give them any credit for breaking Jake Paul’s jaw in two places and getting that knockout? I mean, he did what he was supposed to do even if it might have taken a couple of rounds longer than most people would have anticipated. Hard to say, but I don’t disagree with anything you said. There are definitely a lot of heavyweights out there that would probably beat both these guys at this point, but it does not change what they have done does not change their level of fame, what they’ve accomplished, and the meaning of them fighting each other, at least when they fight each other, whether it’s now or it was a few years ago, they’re at about the same stage of their careers.

They’ve seen their ups and their downs around the same timeframe. So they’re both kind of near the end so it’s still like an even fight.

Even if they had fought a few years ago when they were at a much higher level in their careers, it would have been an even fight. I still want to see it just for the sake of the history of this era of heavyweight boxing.

Is it like Lennox and Tyson now?

The difference though, between Lennox and Tyson, is that Lennox was the champ. Fury and Joshua, neither one of them are champions and that was a fight that Lennox badly wanted for his legacy. Tyson needed it because of financial reasons. Showtime needed it for financial reasons because they had spent so much money on loans to Tyson – it had to happen for a lot of different reasons.

And, of course, they were the two biggest names at that time. I mean, Holyfield was still there kicking around, but he’d already defeated Tyson twice. I don’t think this is quite the same as that fight, even though Lennox was champ, but both guys were obviously not at their best anymore.

But at the time it was the biggest revenue fight in the history of the sport. It’s going to be hard to assess that with Joshua and Fury, because there is no pay-per-view. It’s Netflix putting up whatever they’re putting up, I’m sure many tens of millions of dollars to do the event, but we’ll never truly know from a financial point of view, does it break a heavyweight record or anything like that? And by the way, if they do it in the United States, it has no chance to do that because the gate will not come close to what it would have been in Britain.

If you were going to scale it, what would you say from a 50-50 fight, which way would you lean and towards who?

I mean, I have to lean slightly towards maybe Fury, 55-45, maybe something like that. But it’s a toss-up type fight and they’re both very vulnerable.

The only thing is, though, it’s not the kind of fight where the guy who wins, you’re like, ‘Oh, now he’s going to go on and fight for the heavyweight championship.’

I guess the guy who wins could get a shot just because of their name value and they’ll have beaten the other guy with name value, but it’s not the type of fight where you’ll feel like the guy who wins is truly like the next top contender to get the shot.

Joshua’s mantra going into this was beat Prenga, beat Fury and then unify. That’s what they wanted to do. It looks borderline impossible now, right?

I mean, nothing is impossible, I guess, but I’d be quite surprised by that. And I don’t know how much longer either guy has their heart on fighting after this Fury, even though he’s retired like a thousand times, he’s said how he just wants to keep fighting and fighting and fighting.

I think we’ll see him probably kicking around a bit longer than Anthony Joshua when it’s all said and done. I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but in the meantime, I’m not really trying to piss on the fight or anything like that, I am still personally looking forward to it. I’m just a little irritated by the length of time it took to make it and the fact that they downgraded it to some degree because of their pretty rough performances over the weekend.

These four guys, Usyk, Wilder, Joshua, Fury… say they all retire a year apart from each other. Are they all first ballot future Hall of Famers?

I mean, Usyk a hundred percent is no question about it. And I would say that Fury and Joshua probably are. Wilder, it’s going to be a tough one on him.

I covered Deontay’s entire career. I was at his pro debut, covered a lot of his championship fights, covered him for years and years. I’m just not sure he has the resume to get in. And when I say that it’s kind of weird because you would think the guy that was the WBC heavyweight world champion for five years, made 10 title defences, more title defences than Mike Tyson, for example, that it wouldn’t be a question mark. And the reason is because, and it’s not his fault, he was not in a division at the time that had a top level of premium opponents.

And then you look at what else Deontay has on his record. He lost the two fights against Tyson Fury and the first one was called a draw.

A lot of people felt that Tyson Fury was the rightful winner of that fight. So I’m not sure what’s the win that Deontay can kind of hang his hat on that’s actually Hall of Fame worthy other than a certain amount of longevity as a WBC champion. It’s a tough one.

But there’s no question Usyk is a first ballot Hall of Famer. And I would say if you said to me, rank them, it’s Usyk, it’s Fury, it’s Joshua, and then probably Deontay.

Although you can argue Joshua too. He’s got a great resume. He’s beat a lot of good guys.

People kind of, they forget wins against really quality guys. I mean, the Joseph Parker victory and the Klitschko victory and others as well.

It’s been an interesting era. And I think history will remember it fondly. I remember there have been heavyweight eras where they’ve been criticised and then they are later remembered through almost rose-tinted glasses. I think this era’s had something for everyone. I think we just would have liked this fight maybe two or three times instead of once at the end.

Yeah, it’s hard to disagree with that. I mean, the thing about when people assess the eras is they call it late. I’m proud to say that I have consistently for years talked about ‘when it’s over, you’ll look back on the current era…’

And I talked about the guys I mentioned with the big four plus a few other guys and people will look back and say, ‘Damn, that was a good era.’ I think you can really argue it might be like, what, maybe the third or fourth best era in the history of heavyweight boxing.

Most people look at the seventies of a Foreman and Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and the other supporting contenders. And then, of course, the nineties that we talked about just a little while ago with the led by Lennox and Holyfield and Tyson and Riddick Bowe and a bunch of other guys, the older version of George Foreman. But this one, I think is not that far away.

A lot of these guys fought each other and made tremendous fights. A lot of guys that were evenly matched guys who came in with big amateur accolades and were willing to fight the other top guys. We had plenty of great action fights with all these men.

I introduced you as the King of Boxing Substack at the start. Obviously as someone who’s recently arrived here, was it a brave decision for you to do?

No bravery at all. No.

Okay. Because, because even now there’s like a little reluctance from people to step away from legacy media. I know your time at ESPN had come to an end, but I’m sure there were offers and there have been offers.

Well, when my contract was not renewed at ESPN, I thought to myself, the silver-lining was the end of my contract was right at the beginning of COVID.

So I wasn’t missing anything for the first like year, because at least for the first three or four months, anyway, nothing was happening in boxing. So I was thinking to myself when that happened, listen, being honest, I made a lot of money at ESPN. I got no complaints ever once about my paycheck on the way out the door. I was told by one high-ranking executive that I was making too much money. And I’m sure that was part of the reason why my contract was not renewed, but that’s neither here nor there.

The point was my intention was on the next day, I had said to my wife, ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do, but we’re fine financially. I’m going to relax. I’m going to take the spring, maybe the summer off.’ COVID was happening.

There was nothing going on and I’d figure out what I want to do. And thanks to some people that I’ve known in this business for a long time, within a few days, people called and said: ‘You want to write some stuff?’

I never had heard of Substack at all.

I didn’t even know what it was. The reason I think I heard it was because my mother mentioned it to me. She had read an article about it, maybe in the New York Times or in some story or saw something on TV about it.

And, and she’s like, ‘You should check this out. It might be something that could work for you.’ I was like, ‘Well, let me check.’

Asked my wife, she said: ‘Yeah, I know what Substack is.’ And she subscribed to like a couple of newsletters, not about boxing, but about other things that she was interested in. And then I come to realize as I’m doing my research that two of my old buddies from my days at ESPN, my good pal, Mark Stein, who was the legendary NBA writer and my old wingman for many fights, I covered for ESPN, Arash Markazi, who had left ESPN, had gone to the Los Angeles Times and then had a struck out on his own.

They had Substack, so I asked them for counsel, ‘How was this working for you guys? What do you think?’ And I got some ins and outs from those guys and I was like, ‘You know what, let me give this a try.’ So I created it in like January 2020 or 2021. I forget what year it was. It was free.

And I just wanted to kind of stay involved. I was still doing a bunch of freelance stuff. And it got to a point where I was like, ‘I can’t just keep doing this for free. I gotta make a decision. What am I going to do?’ And I was like, ‘I’ll offer a paid-plan also,’ and anybody who’s familiar with Substack, there’s a paid formula, most people have behind a paywall, but they offer some content for free just as part of the whole deal. And so I turned it as a paid product.

And Tris, let me tell you, I didn’t know if one person would buy a subscription or five people or a hundred people or a thousand people. It’s not like I went out and did market research. There were no focus groups.

I knew I had somewhat of a name within the business from my days at USA Today and ESPN. And that was obviously very helpful. And I can’t even explain in words, the pleasantness of my surprise that people were willing to support independent journalism, boxing or otherwise, and bought subscriptions to my product.

And I have been now doing it for six years and it is how I make my primary living. Even if I got rid of my other stuff, I do my podcasts and some other occasional freelance things I did, I can make a living doing it the way I’m doing it. So I’m thrilled and I’m happy. I tell people I don’t work for myself, but I really work for the readers.

They’re the ones that buy the subscription. And so, fortunately enough, people have done it and it’s worked out great for the last six years.

Were you an overnight success or like how long did it take? Because you’ve got more than 15,000 subs, right?

Now they’re not all paid, by the way.

For sure. I get that.

It wasn’t overnight. I’ve worked my ass off on this every single day for six years. And I did it for free for eight months before I ever even thought about making it into a paid product. Just because, in my mind, I was still weighing other opportunities, thinking about what else I might want to do.

I didn’t want to ask somebody to pay me their money and not give it my full attention. So I don’t want to like turn it into a pay product and do it half-assed. When I decided to make it a paid thing, and there’s still some things obviously that are not for pay, but you can still see plenty of stories and posts that are not behind the paywall, but once I determined, ‘I’m gonna make this available for pay, I want the people that put their hard-earned money to get their money’s worth, I’m there to give them everything I got.’

And so hopefully they keep with it. And so far, it’s been more of a success than I could ever have imagined. It’s a beautiful thing. It really is. It’s capitalism. It’s independence. It’s all that stuff.

With your history of legacy media and journalism, local journalism as well, let’s not forget where you’ve worked for smaller newspapers on the way through before you got to USA Today, so you’ve got that legacy background. Is it tough to embrace this new thing where you’re stepping away from the establishment and everything that you got taught on the way through in journalism, the structure, it’s no longer the one we existed in for two decades?

Yeah. I mean, it’s hard to be your own editor. Obviously I strive not to make mistakes, but inevitably you’re going to make a spelling mistake or you’re missing this, or you’re missing that.

And, you know, I write a story about Tyson Fury, forget to put his name in the story and I’ve got to go back and fix it, but it’s too late for your people who get the emails. You can change it on the website, of course, but the folks that already got your blast, it’s kind of too late. So I kind of struggle with that from time to time, but the tenets of journalism have never changed. It doesn’t matter if I’m working for ESPN or USA Today, places that have extremely high standards for their journalism or the local newspapers that I work for that I didn’t do boxing at. I learned the trade well before when I worked at small newspapers in places like Saratoga Springs, New York and Binghamton, New York.

And before that on my college newspaper and taking some college classes and learning journalism, those things have been pounded into me and driven me by my editors that I’ve had for my entire career when I worked for those outlets. That doesn’t just go away. I still hold myself to the same standards that any reputable journalism outlet would hold.

I try to make sure I’ve got my sourcing correct. I make sure I’m not going to libel anybody, and be as accurate as humanly possible. And I’ve been criticised by some in the boxing space that I’m sometimes too conservative when I’m going to go with a story because I’m not willing to be wrong, you know? I take humongous pride and always have, and this even goes back to my days at the paper at USA Today and at ESPN, is if I write something that I can be trusted. It’s not fake news. It’s legit, and I take great pride in that. And I want to keep that reputation and whether it’s on Substack or it’s on a normal mainstream press-type of thing, it doesn’t matter. But I’m doing my Substack.

I have seen some other boxing people come into this space. I wish everybody good luck, but I’m going to tell you it’s hard work, man. And to make money at it is really difficult, but I’ve managed to be able to do it.

Who was the last fighter to call you out, Dan? Obviously, you’re so well known that I’ve seen you cross swords with people for years. Who was the last guy who got onto you or the last big name who called you out on X for whatever reason?

That’s a good question. I have been called out by a lot of guys over there. I mean, it’s been consistent for the last few years. I can’t tell you the last time, but I’ve certainly had my ups and downs with Ryan Garcia, at times, no doubt about it.

And by the way, when he was telling me when he tested positive for the drugs, after the Devin Haney fight and that I was lying or whatever, every single thing I wrote turned out to be 100 per cent accurate. He did get suspended. He did test positive. He did settle with the commission… things along those lines. And I don’t say that because I have any beef with Ryan Garcia. I’ve known him for many years. I had a very good relationship with him.

I knew him since he’s basically a teenager and right around the time he was turning professional. So I don’t have no ill will towards him whatsoever, but that’s one guy. I’ve had my battles, but it’s not because I’m trying to be antagonistic to these guys.

You know the business. You’ve been around boxers for many years. Also that a lot of fighters and not just boxers, but managers and promoters and other people in the business, broadcasters, they have thin skins, and the thing I always found about the fighters, they have such bravery in the ring and they’re such hard men and women and they can deal with the physicality and the pain and all the things that go along with being a professional fighter, which I admire every single one of them that steps up into that ring, but when they’re outside the ring, if you have a mild criticism, they break into a thousand pieces.

They can’t take it. It’s just sort of always been an anomaly to me. Like they’re such tough people physically, but emotionally the smallest criticism just breaks them apart and they lash out and they can’t take constructive criticism.

Sometimes it goes a little beyond that, but it’s sort of weird to me. But I’ll say this, though, all the fighters I’ve ever had those sort of battles with for the most part, everything always ended up being cool. I had a four-year thing with Bernard Hopkins years and years ago, I was just texting with Bernard the other day. I had my battles with your buddy Carl Froch. I saw Carl Froch a few years ago, in Texas, at a Canelo fight when he was fighting Billy Joe Saunders and we’ve been cool for years. I love Carl. I mean, point is, life’s too short to hold those grudges. You know what I mean?

I would read that Substack story though, Dan, if you wrote something about these personal times you’ve been called out on social media.

I mean, there’s been times… Shannon Briggs tried to beat me up or tried to fight me at ringside one time. And James Toney probably would punch me in the face if I saw him today. Shit happens, you know?

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It’s fair to say I’ve been in nicer parts of Philadelphia than the sweltering basement of the Shepard Recreation Center in the Haddington neighbourhood.

But amongst this poor, depressing concrete jungle is a former Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight title challenger with a tale to tell.

And it is quite a story because Tyrell Biggs faced most of the top fighters of his generation (Riddick Bowe, L RSF 8, and Lennox Lewis, L RSF 3, as well as Tony Tubbs, Gary Mason, Francesco Damiani, David Bey and James Tillis) and he had a rivalry with Mike Tyson that spilled over from the amateurs.

First things first, however, and he was saddened to hear of the death of Mason, who stopped him in seven back in 1989 at the Royal Albert Hall.

Gary died in January 2011 when he was struck while cycling in South London. Biggs did not know but fondly remembered a “strong guy with a big punch”.

(Main picture: Author’s collection)

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Raymond Muratalla fights Robson Conceicao on August 1 and here he talks about working with trainer Robert Garcia, being in camp with “Bam” Rodriguez, and his hopes for the future.

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